Electrical grid fragility

[Stan]

Since most of us want our Listers to be prime movers for generators (except the odd one who likes to pump water) this may be of interest.

I had coffee with a bunch of old reprobates this morning and my buddy who still works for our hydro company asked me if my generator was up and working.  When I said not yet I'm not in a hurry, he answered that I'd better be.

It seems the town I live in has 2 "legs" both of which are operating waaaay over capacity.  I was told that the first branch that falls on a power line and shorts it out, there will be no switching capacity to the other leg, and as a matter of fact it may just crash as well because some of the switches will try to do their thing.  The result will be a long and prolonged outage.  He wouldn't elaborate citing "his a$$ would be in a sling" anyone found out he blabbed.

Is there anyone out there with some hydro experience that can tell me if this makes any sense?
STan

[mobile_bob]

Stan:

absolutely nothing surprises me anymore, the banks over extended themselves
stocks became overpriced, seems like everyone was or maybe still is living like there is no
tomorrow.

don't surprise me that there is a utility company out there that is running on the edge of disaster as well.

quite frankly i suspect this is the tip of a very dirty iceburg in my opinion.

maybe we will be lucky and continue to dodge the bullet?

maybe a good time to get you genset online?

it always amazes me here in the seattle tacoma area what takes place when we get a windstorm
the tree's fall, power goes out,, not traffic control, no fuel at the pumps, no way to buy food if there is any on
the shelves, can't even get the damned atm machine to cough up my money!
and that all happens in the first several hours, people go crazy driving on sidewalks, cutting each other off
like it is armagedon or something.

i don't even want to be here if something really serious happens, like mt ranier waking up, another big quake
or some crazed terrorist doing something really whacked out.

hopefully what your friend is the exception and not the rule,, but i wonder if this is not the case.

wanna get really freaked out, do a search on  a government report on the supertransformers that feed the national grids,
what they cost, how they are built, how long to build/erect and get online,, and particularly how many companies worldwide that
build those monsters.  after reading that report and seeing the twin towers fall,, i don't think i wanna trust the grid any further than
i could throw a 40ft lightpole in a javelin throw competition.

and your friend is concerned about a calamity from one fallen tree?
i think that says it all!

bob g

[LowGear]

Hi Stan,

What are you questioning?  That BC Hydro will put an employee's ass in a sling or that loosing one leg will put the other under such a load that it fails as well?

Sorry, I guess I've been watching Leno too regularly.

Casey

Not to digress but isn’t this what has happened on the NE US grids time and again?

[compig]

I guess the whole planet is in an energy crisis. Here in the UK & Europe we are being held to ransom by Russia with gas supplies and the UK in particular decades of hopeless energy policy has resulted in a knee jerk decision (!!) to build additional Nuclear power stations , great !! So , not only are these reactors supplied by France so do nothing to help British industry but future generations have the decommissioning problem to deal with.
When the present government claims that they have propagated and achieved an unprecedented period of growth in the UK economy over the last 10 years they seem to forget that (even if it were true) it has been at the expense of a complete lack of attention to the critical infrastructure of the country. Transport , health , energy and education have been ignored like they didn't matter. Anyone can make a balance sheet look good when they don't spend money where needed.
Governments are a joke.

[trigzy]

Since most of us want our Listers to be prime movers for generators (except the odd one who likes to pump water) this may be of interest.

I had coffee with a bunch of old reprobates this morning and my buddy who still works for our hydro company asked me if my generator was up and working.  When I said not yet I'm not in a hurry, he answered that I'd better be.

It seems the town I live in has 2 "legs" both of which are operating waaaay over capacity.  I was told that the first branch that falls on a power line and shorts it out, there will be no switching capacity to the other leg, and as a matter of fact it may just crash as well because some of the switches will try to do their thing.  The result will be a long and prolonged outage.  He wouldn't elaborate citing "his a$$ would be in a sling" anyone found out he blabbed.

Is there anyone out there with some hydro experience that can tell me if this makes any sense?
STan

I will also be vauge about my specific involvment, and knowledge, but I will say this:  It makes sense.  Utilities make a lot of assumptions when wiring things, and often aren't sure what loads are on what lines/switches etc.  All of this is getting better with smart meters, GPS, real time remote monitoring, etc.  The thing that is not getting better, is that utilities push their equipment HARD.  It is not unheard of for a utility to run transfomers at 150% of thier nameplate rating, even on a hot summer day.  "Overloaded" wires/equipment dont build up much ice in an ice storm though, so there can be some trade-offs there.  In your senario, the automatic switching might put both feeders in the dark, but quick action (modern system and/or manual overrides) will get the non-damaged one back online pretty quick.  You also might be a little spooked if I gave you some realistic numbers about the chances of a breaker/fuse opening if there was a fallen line/short/etc, all I will say is to always treat any down line like it is live at 46kV.

[Sfene]

Utility Companies are like any other industry, they scrimp where they can, unfortunately the nature of the beast is that they have to be prepared to carry the heaviest possible load at any time, under any circumstance (i.e. loss of a generator and or numerous transmission lines). By definition this is not possible, the grid is always at risk. See what happened a few years ago in Ohio. The outage cascaded until a large part of the east was off line.

I work for a utility and can tell you that only recently has reliability been addressed, now the Govt. sees it as a National Security issue so Utilities are getting big money to upgrade the system. New lines, new breakers, new power transformers, new substations.

Tell your sons and daughters, forget college, train as a lineman, a substation electrician, or in power system test and they will not go hungry for many many years.

This is just the transmission system, you may never see any upgrades on your street because there is very little money in providing you with power, all the money is in delivering the power across the country.

Sfene

[lowspeedlife]

People don't seem to understand that this stuff has to be maintained & upgraded occasionally. Here on the mid-altlantic coast of the U.S. they have been trying to build a new power transmission line for years, the people who live under the present lines (where the new one will be built) keep sueing to stop the construction or force it to go underground, at 10 times the cost, when two transmission lines already exist there. And yes, I can see it from my front door. So how can they keep the grid online if it can't be repaired or upgraded?

[rcavictim]

People don't seem to understand that this stuff has to be maintained & upgraded occasionally. Here on the mid-altlantic coast of the U.S. they have been trying to build a new power transmission line for years, the people who live under the present lines (where the new one will be built) keep sueing to stop the construction or force it to go underground, at 10 times the cost, when two transmission lines already exist there. And yes, I can see it from my front door. So how can they keep the grid online if it can't be repaired or upgraded?

Well obviously you can't.  That's where NIMBY meets NUMBNUTS.

[lowspeedlife]

LOL , RCA, lots of both in the washinton D.C. area & we are getting a whole new crop this month
  Scott R.

[LowGear]

RCA?  Does that have to do with appliances or cowgirls?

LowGear

[Fairmountvewe]

Stan;
      I can't comment about BC, but if your utility is anything like the utility here in Ontario, your line guys are probably subject to the same polictically driven, short-sighted cr@p that we are here.  Infrastructure gets so much gum and so little money, it would make your head spin.  The guys who know how bad things are aren't allowed to do what is needed to fix it.  Everything has to be planned, examined, replanned, tendered, replanned again, and just before something actually happens, the guy in charge gets a better job somewhere else, and the whole process starts all over again.  I have a generator, I have some fuel and I have hope that it wont all coming tumbling down.  I know that a lot of municipalities are growing at faster rates than they plan, and in an effort to keep costs (and therefore taxes) low, planners don't always estimate things on the high side.  Are things as bad as they are going to get?  I don't think so.  Will they get better?  I sure hope so.  My $.02

Peter

[Sfene]

I always find it funny when those who live near a right of way complain when an upgrade has to go through, didnt they see the big towers and hear the crackling when they bought? There are alway lawyers available to take these peoples money when they want to stop a project, most time they lose, the utility wins and so do the lawyers.

Hydro is the cleanest energy bar none, yet you will never see another dam built here in the U.S.

People have to make a choice, either cut back on usage (efficiency, never a popular idea) or, allow new and better infrastructure. There is no third choice.

Sfene

[ZackaryMac]

Governments are a joke.

This is SUCH a universal truth! If only they HAD to be accountable for what they say, like all of us have to be at our jobs.

It's scary how much we depend on electricity. Try to imagine not having anything electrical...not even a flashlight. Yikes.

[MacGyver]

So how can they keep the grid online if it can't be repaired or upgraded?

It's simple. And I think the utility companies should PAY me for the idea AND for keeping my 6/1in "ready for service" condition.
All that's required is to have a good backup generator that's always ready to go on a moments notice.
That *guarantees* that the grid will never go down in your neighborhood!

PROOF:
We've lived in this house for 4 winters now.

The first year, in the first week of January, the power was off for 3+ consecutive days. ( And the road was closed for 3 days also)
The second year, in the first week of January, the power was off for 5+ hours one day and 3+ hours another day.
The 3rd year, in the first week of January, the power was off for 4+ consecutive days.

THIS year, I'm armed and ready with a decent generator that's always plumbed in and ready to go... and the first week of January is almost ended and the power hasn't gone off for even a minute!  

I have Virtually Guaranteed the stability of the grid in this area, and I think the utility companies AND my neighbors should cough up some cash to reimburse me for my efforts!  

[Stan]

I agree, however I don't think anyone will pay for good voodoo, you can't prove it scientifically.  What a dull world! 
Stan