Author Topic: Help Me Build It  (Read 7685 times)

Dail R H

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Help Me Build It
« on: December 23, 2008, 10:00:47 PM »
   Now that I've got my engine,and gen,it's time to start thinking about how and what I want (need) to do.Here is what I think now,all subject to change as I go along,but these are the current plans.
   1. Primary power for off grid workshop/apartment
   2. Battery back
   3. Some wind added later
   4. Mains power to be added several years from now.
   When the project is completed,I or I leave,everything except mains service is mine,and I will take it with me.The apartment is 900sqft,and I would like for life there to be as near normal as possible. Heat will be wood stove in shop,and apartment. Building is just a shell now,30 x 30 no floor, so I have a blank page to work on.
   This building will have it's own electrical service in the future,but the owner is not ready to do that now. However,we need the use of my woodworking tools now,and I need a place to be by myself sometimes. Please don't tell me this is all an unworkable pipe dream. I don't have a clue as to batteries, converters,ect except not to use 12 car bats

ronmar

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 10:39:00 PM »
What kind of woodworking tools?  what kind of engine/generator?  What kind of lifestyle and appliances(average and peak electrical loads)? 

I know some have had issues with a single cylinder genset running certain wood working equipment.  Apparently the power flicker associated with a single cylinder generator can be seen in the output finish cut on a planer or shaper.

A liquid cooled engine can also provide quite a bit of hot water and heat.  If you ae mainly going to be burning fuel to make electricity, it would be more economical to recover that normally wasted heat to keep the hot water tank full and perhaps provide some building heat if needed.  At the very least, it might cut down on the ammount of firewood you have to process thru the woodstove.       
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t19

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 10:46:03 PM »
you should talk to JohnF, he runs a wood working shop on some 6/1s
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mike90045

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 01:34:30 AM »
   Now that I've got my engine,and gen,it's time to start thinking about how and what I want (need) to do.Here is what I think now,all subject to change as I go along,but these are the current plans.
  < snip >

Where do you plan on building this?  Alaska ?  Hawaii ?  Arizona ? Tierra del Fuego?  What does a Wind Map claim for your area?

You say "apartment" which implies you will pay rental to a landlord - to whom will all these improvements belong to?

Dail R H

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 05:57:47 AM »
   Let's try with a little more info and background,my bad.The site is in central WV located on a large acreage. The property belongs to my oldest daughter's boss, who is a training consultant for the gov, and industrial corps. He is also  affiliaded with several mens ministries.When he bought the property about 18non ago,there were 3 major buildings there. The first,the main house 6000 sq ft unfinished,the second,32 x 52 garage,and the third the 30 x30 that has become known as "my" building. I took my sawmill up to saw some lumber to finish the decks for the main house,supposedly to take about a month. With any luck,I'll finish in maybe 4 more years.My building is 4 to 5 hundred feet from the main house,too far to run power from the main panel in the main house,besides that is already too loaded as it is. We are on temporary service according to the power co,that's why the owner doesn't want to add a separate service at this time.That will come later. Once we have enough facilities complete,we will use this as a training center/retreat.
   Recently,I was able to buy a 12/2 METRO,and 10k head. once up and running,these will hopefully power the shop, and apartment. For tools,I have
   1. 18in Woodmaster planer,5hp
   2. 5in Grizzly jointer,don't know hp
   3. 10in table saw,3hp
   4. spindle shaper,3hp
   5. 10in radial arm saw
   6. hand power tools and lights
   With just me in the apartment,and not all the time at that,it's requirements should be fairly low. Some lighting,small refigerator,small freezer,computer,sattelite tv,small water pump. The planer is the only thing I think I may have trouble starting. Only one machine at a time,any extra 'lectric can go to batteries. Yeah,I know about the heat,I'll use that in the winter.
   Maybe this info will help some. Sometimes, I don't think too clear,that first post didn't have much info in it did it.
   

Dail R H

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 06:55:27 AM »
   Budget............................hahahahahah,we don't got no stinnnnkin budget done spent that.
   The plan right now is to mount the engine and gen on a metal skid,probably old truck chassis. I already have very heavy flywheel off an old hay baler. I'm thinking to put that between the engine and the gen. Looking at all the engine sets on here,it seems to me that the belt runs are too short. All my experience with flat belts tells me that longer is better. Space is not an issue for this installation. Plans call for radiant heat in the floor,900 sq ft of 6in thick concrete ought to cool a 12/2 no?I'de like to wire the building as near normal as possible,just bring leads from the gen to the panel as regular service entry. To start with,the set will have to be inside the building for security, but there is a 12 shed on all four sides of the place,just got to make it look good,guests see my buikding first.

mike90045

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 02:03:14 PM »
Plans call for radiant heat in the floor,900 sq ft of 6in thick concrete ought to cool a 12/2 no?

When you start slicing up a slab with plumbing, you may have to go a bit thicker.  Before the pour, look into getting "Fiber Reinforcement" added to the mix, little extra cost, big benefit in crack reduction. 

Also, in the summer, you may need a cooling radiator, the slab may not need extra heat.

With a large engine, you will need large loads (at least 50% load) to keep it running properly, diesels don't idle well, they need to work.  Maybe a small Honda EU-2000/EU-1000 would be a good genset for light loads, with it's auto-throttle and inverter output.

Consider possibly charging a 48V bank of 6V golf cart batteries, and that bank runs a large, pure sine inverter, which would run all loads except an arc welder. That covers your Fridge & lighting use, and could still start the big saw
Xantrex XW6048-120/240-60 but it's not cheap.  http://store.solar-electric.com/xaxwhyin1.html
Get golf cart batteries from local sources, but build a shed to park them and the gen in, FIRST.  You don't want diesel in your living room

Dail R H

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2008, 02:46:48 PM »
   I'll try to get some pics of the facility up today. Don't have any of the engine yet,it's spending Christmas at the local hardware store.

SteveU.

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2008, 08:38:46 PM »
Hello DailRH

Most people close couple the engine and gen head due to space considerations and to make them movable as as a single unit.
You wish to long belt this. Thats OK. I wanted too also.  Where are you going to get the belt?  No sources for newly manufactured 4" wide belts here where I live.
If you have a rough ground fork lift the trick way is to engine mount onto 6" web channel or I beam so the fork lift can move it.
I only have 1000# tractor bucket lifting capability so I'm switching from using a single 800# mounting  block to using 6"x6" double up treated wooden stingers with 12 90# concrete stair treads sandwiched in between them. My other idea was to concrete fill 24"x 11.50" truck tires as a base and mount the engine on wooden or metal framework on top with all of it bolted togather. This can all be broken down into chunks that I can move by myself with my tractor.
The point is you need to design the moveablity  into your set up from the beginning.
And if you do long belt drive you will either have to heavy mount the engine and gen head separatly to keep them from creeping/walking togather or use some type of wooden or metal spreader between them.
Hey, half the challenge is thinking these things up. The other half is knowing when to throw out a design and start over.

It's an adventure. Welcome.
SteveU.
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ronmar

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2008, 09:01:07 PM »
Setting them close allows for the use of a commonly available automotive serpentine belt.  IMO heavy flywheel mass anywhere but on the crank can give you issues with a belt drive slipping/chirping under heavy load. 

Just so you are aware, That is a 2 cylinder, but sadly, the roid 2 cylinders do not fire in direct opposition to each other so their power output is not as smooth as it could be.  The second cylinder is on it's compression stroke as the first is on it's power stroke and fires 180 degrees after the first cylinder does.  This will still have flicker and may cause issues with your shaping tools.

That is also a 6KW setup, and as mentioned needs an adequate load to run healthy.  I like the battery and inverter route as it allows for on-demand power 24/7, without needing the generator runing all that time.  The sine wave inverter will also give you clean power to run the shaping tools.  IF the loads ar light, you may only need to run the gen every couple of days, depending on the size of the battery bank.  Unfortunatly you mentioned the "B" word, or lack of, and this route will require a large Budget.  The inverter route also may need fome gas appliances be added to the budget as electric hot water is not a practical load for an invverter setup IMO.  This of course means LPG tank and occasional fillups for that.           
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Fairmountvewe

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2008, 09:56:33 PM »
"You wish to long belt this. Thats OK. I wanted too also.  Where are you going to get the belt?  No sources for newly manufactured 4" wide belts here where I live"

Just a thought, but most farm equipment dealers sell flat belting for round balers in 4, 5, and 6 inch widths.  They usually stock them in rolls of a couple of hundred feet and custom make the length you need.  Hope this helps, and Merry Christmas to all.
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sid

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2008, 11:39:43 PM »
I do not have any trouble finding flat belts for my corn mills..most cities have a belt co. that will make about anything that you need//just look in the yellow pages..or google.. also most have mail order// i use a flat belt 6 in by about 18 feet and the last one I had made was less than $40.00/ of course the type of belt will determine the price//quality is good and the ones I use do not stretch after the first day of use.another plus is they can be taken apart and put back together/I have never used one on a generator so I do not know how they would work/it is easy to buy rolls of belting and lace it together/ I have several belt lacers made by clipper and it is easy to find the clips///you mileage will vary//sid
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amashinga

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Re: Help Me Build It
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 07:33:06 PM »

I know some have had issues with a single cylinder genset running certain wood working equipment.  Apparently the power flicker associated with a single cylinder generator can be seen in the output finish cut on a planer or shaper.

I have 30 years experience in woodworking but very little in generators.  I dont see how a power flicker would have an effect.  For any tool like a planer or shaper it is multi bladed for a reason.  any irregularity with one blade is compensated for by another.  The inertia of the machine is also considerable which would override any momentary power loss.  Lastly, the wood travels on a constant plane in relation to the blades.  Any change in blade speed will not change that plane.  I have at times even hit the kill switch when the wood started behaving in a way I did not like and then re-started the machining process without seeing any issue from it.

I know you are reporting what is said, so please dont feel I am calling you out I just thought I would give my opinion too.