TRB Crank HELP

[Petersbpus]

People, using the term loosely always want someone to blame , they just need take good look in mirror to see culprit.
But what's that to do with beating up on the new guy! were you the bully in school?
Take your meds, beat your dog some more, you are taking the hero out of hero  member.
I can however see your point about bastardizing origional equipment, but have you got a crank t reccomend? other than crank posting??
Bob
Nobby, now watch the fun.

[tigger]

Stan
TRB or white metal, the engine will be running fine and will outlast anyone of us.
So why these 'arguments', anyone can take an engine apart and then botch it togeather again.
I change mine over to TRB because I can.

[Stan]

I was just wondering why, when it's not just the crank that needs to be changed, but the mounting system, allignment etc etc.  What I was really asking was what was the potential gain, when there was so much potential downside in the work, cost etc. involved?

But if you are doing it just for the hell of it, so be it.  We all would like it to be a free world, but know it isn't. 
stan

[tigger]

Stan
Gain-----maybe it's just a challange an idea, I don't see a gain as such just that I had to use my gray cells to make it work.

[nobby]

Guyfawkes.

So your basis for saying that Tigger is stupid is based upon your opinion that he is technically incapable of safely installing the crankshaft and TRB’s.  I had initially assumed that it was more based on the fact that you felt that the TRB was an inferior modification.  My apologies for making that assumption.  If this is indeed the case then why not say that to him.  As I submitted before to not do that and basically name call does not in any way further your cause.

Technobabble bullshit umm what terms should I be using ‘you will need to install the whosey whatsit inside the thingamy jig to a measurement of 0.15 whatyamacallits. 

I did not say ‘you might have to shim it dude’, I believe my earlier post clearly makes the point that you will have to shim it.  Did it ever occur to you that by using the appropiate technical terms etc as in my post I was also expecting him to question if he understood me and if he did not know what the hell I was talking about he would smartly seek local guidance on what he is up to.  I will concede that yes maybe I myself should of posted words also saying that if you are not technically able nor do not have a clue as to what I am posting about then you should not attempt this.  Perhaps we should all have words to this effect at the base of our posts as a form of disclaimer.

‘As an Engineer’ you have made assumptions about my level of experience/abilities as an engineer.  Well in response to you if you are a  good engineer you would of explained your reasoning for his benefit in your first post and not merely called him names.

Lastly MODS this may is somewhat veering Off Topic however please do not delete because I believe in support of Guyfawkes cause this is in the long run making the point to those not in the know that if you do not know what you are doing and get it wrong then the grave potential for bad results is most clearly there.

Oh and one more thing to clarify peoples assumptions based on my posting.  I believe that this is an inferior modification to the original Lister crank and bushings.  However Tigger has made his choice and owns the TRB setup discussing the relative merits is somewhat mute at this point.  Unless I suppose he can be convinced to pony up and spend the extra money for the original parts.

One more idea perhaps we should all take a test when we sign up to see how good an Engineer we are. We could all then get a rating by our name to that end so that people do not go making wild assumptions based upon our using appropriate technical terms!

Anyone care for some popcorn?

[tigger]

what a lot of shit, I asked a reasenable question and what do answers do I get MOSTLY CRAP.
what a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stan]

Nobby, I'll submit to any test you like, when and if we are allowed to test the intelligence of our politicians. 
Stan

[MacGyver]

what a lot of shit, I asked a reasenable question and what do answers do I get MOSTLY CRAP.
what a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well Tigger, that's the way it goes sometimes.
A large percentage of the time that Fawkes puts his $.02 in, things go quickly down the toilet.
Do a long search for past threads that Guy has spouted his wisdom into, and you'll understand...

I can't pretend to approve of converting a *genuine* Lister from plain bearing to TRB, BUT, if�  you have to do it (for whatever personal or technical reason) and you're SURE that the bearings are fully seated and that there were no burrs anywhere holding things apart and that you REALLY need to take up 4mm of "slack" to make it work, I don't think it's the end of the world and your kids probably aren't going to die in a horrible accident because of it....

Keep in mind that you need to keep the crank correctly centered in the case so it doesn't "interact badly" with other parts. If it's offset to far to one side it can hit the cam, etc. You may need equal thickness shims on both sides, or you may need to offset the crank in one direction or other to get it centered correctly. That's YOUR call.

If you *need* to make up a couple of steel shims to take up the extra space, then you can either make them yourself�  if you have the tools and patience, or have a shop with a plasma or laser cutter burn them out for you.

I don't know if a genuine Dursley 5/1 and an Indian 6/1 share the same bearing housing gasket pattern, but if they do, then here's a DXF file of�  that may be helpful to you...
http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/sweetwatergems/geek/misc/lister_main_bearing_gasket.dxf

I drew it for a 6/1 'roid. You can print it out on paper and cut it out to make gaskets for your beast, or if you need to have steel shims cut out, any good metal shop that has a plasma or laser cutter should be able to use the DXF file to cut what you need. If you use it to make steel shims, print it on paper first and make SURE it fits your hardware correctly.

Good luck. Don't let Guy scare you off. He means well, but he kind of goes over the top sometimes...

[xyzer]

MacGyver,
 Didn't this scenario happen to you as a fresh poster? ....same guy?   

Tigger,
For what its worth I see no problem and have no problem with your modification. I'm sure you will cross a few minor adjustments to accommodate the install.  When you are done you will be the first guy I know of that has done it! Needing shims is better than machining the TRB holders. I can tell you need to pay attention to the idler gear and the TRB race. When you get the TRB's set correct you may need to swap shims from side to side to keep the idler gear from binding on the TRB race. Use several thin ones so you can balance the offset of the crank. You may have to disassemble assemble a couple times to get everything correctly located. The "Listeroids" have this issue if the crank is set to far in the wrong direction. Hang in the Tigger.......this can be an off the wall site sometimes but still tons of experience out there! Also I don’t believe your children are at risk with this modification but I would see if the crank tastes like chocolate before you install it.
Dave       
     

[Quinnf]

Though it's something I'd never do, Tigger's project is unique.  To my knowledge nobody here has done a systematic comparison of parts between a genuine Lister and a 'roid.  I'd be interested in just what it was the Indians did way back when, to make the original design into what we know as a 'roid.  Are bearing caps interchangeable?  Just what are the differences in the crankshaft?  Is the throw exactly the same?  Lots of good stuff can come out of this.

Quinn

[GuyFawkes]

what a lot of shit, I asked a reasenable question and what do answers do I get MOSTLY CRAP.
what a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, you asked a fucking stupid question, and when someone calls you on it you act like you are the offended one.

[abbamovers]

Though it's something I'd never do, Tigger's project is unique. To my knowledge nobody here has done a systematic comparison of parts between a genuine Lister and a 'roid. I'd be interested in just what it was the Indians did way back when, to make the original design into what we know as a 'roid. Are bearing caps interchangeable? Just what are the differences in the crankshaft? Is the throw exactly the same? Lots of good stuff can come out of this.

Quinn

Quinn has the right idea.
You should have the specs/measurements of  NOS Lister Dursley parts compared to the Indian parts.
This could be accomplished quite easily.
Contact Stationary Engine Parts in the UK as they do have access to a CMM ( co-ordinate measuring machine ) and they have the NOS Lister Dursley parts as well as the Indian parts in stock to make a direct comparison.
As far as I know they may have very well already done the comparison already.
Could not hurt to contact them and find out.
http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/

.

[oliver90owner]

Lets get a little perpsective on this thread.

The OP says:how do I adjust the play of my TRB crank???

This, on it's own, isolated, and the only information to go on, means "I do not know how to adjust the end float on my crankshaft"

Later on we find that this fellow who is doing it, as he says:"I change mine over to TRB because I can."

I am very sorry but there is one h*ll of a difference between those two postings.  One is a plea on how do to do it and the other indicates the thread was totally unecessary.

What a change.  First we have a total greenhorn and then a day later he claims to be a master mechanic/engineer.  I don't particularly buy that.

Forks' first comment was simply about the basically stupid idea of attempting it (probably without any apparent forethought on any possible problems that might make the conversion difficult or uneconomic or dangerous?).  He used a nice analogy similar to the proverbial chocolate teapot.

Hero Tom then chipped in with another really unuseful comment re re the oil pump (just goes to show how little is understood about the original CS design, and why it was such a stroke of genius from the men at Lister) and then chided Forks for speaking up so forthright (well probably less forthright than usual).  That was the recipe for it all to fall apart.  It did.  Quite predictably so.

So how is switching to TRB's going to kill his kids?

We don't even know if he has any, but we recently had that no-brainer with his child climbing next to the gib key etc while the engine was running, there was the guy who blew himself and his garage up while making biodiesel, the archives showing exploded flywheels (usually due to over-speeding)......and more.  

I have done some silly things in my 60 years but have gotten away with it without too many scars -  but I usually thought it out first and then found the odd flaw in my plans.  Firing wrong length bullet from a rifle to see if it would work or blow the gun, was one which clearly was not a good idea....At least I was the other side of the tree.

We then get:what a lot of shit, I asked a reasenable question and what do answers do I get MOSTLY CRAP

That was the problem in hindsight and at the beginning.  You should have been told early on that the proper repair was the proper way to go.  Lets face it an analysis of this post is that it was real rubbish from the start.  Sorry but that was my view in my first post on the subject, and it still is.

Have you noticed how many have said 'oh what a good idea'?  Not too many, eh?  Just that Forks is a bit blunt when it comes to diplomacy.  S'pose I am too.

RAB

[xyzer]

Tigger,
I hope you haven't bailed on us yet and I don't blame you! Your thread has gone from a simple valid question to chocolate brakes and baby killers! I found this site years ago when I acquired my "Listeroid" and there was a great bunch of guys that would answer questions without all the attacks. We all learned from each other. I have learned to deal with the post/bullshit factor most of the time but when an attack on poster from the category of the higher levels of the post/bullshit factor occurs I will throw my hat in the ring. Your questions were 100% valid and on topic. Some want to call you stupid for not knowing the answer.....stupid is not asking!
   
It was said by a poster elsewhere

"That is a rather rigid stand-point for such a wide ranging subject.  Different ways to resolve different problems with different installations with different outputs with different prime movers with different fuels with different construction techniques with different available technology in different environments.

No such thing as 'only one way to skin a cat'."

Hmmmmmmm I agree with the statement were it was made and in this thread also!

In my younger days we put model A cranks in model T blocks so we could produce more power out of the T and they would stay together at hill climbs. A lot more complicated than your mod...funny I was never called stupid or compared to a baby killer! Back then I think it was “Far out man”!
Good luck on your mod! I’m sure you will be able to figure it out on your own and it will do fine for you. Remember no one here that I know has ever done your mod before to know the actual pros and cons……but when your done you will. If I am ever lucky enough to own a worn out “Lister” that needs what yours does I may be trying to find you for advice so I don’t need to do some things twice.
Dave


   

[nobby]

First of all I will remake the point I made before have you contacted SEP on this, as has been subsequently pointed out? I am assuming here that you sourced from them.  They advertise that this will work on a CS one would hope that they have done all the dimensional fitment homework for you then.  If you purchased somewhere else and these are a different source supplier parts to SEP, moreover the fact that the supplier did not inform you that they will fit a CS then you have your own homework to do.

Secondly initially as already pointed out for whatever reason you were not getting that much in the way of deeply informative responses.  I for one am guilty of giving you a fairly brief response.  For that I apologise at that time it was all the time I had.  Ironically enough after Guyfawkes threw the preverbial spanner in you actually have been getting deeper responses discussing fit of the crank in relation to the engine and its componenants.  So I would not say that it has all gone to S..., your thread is still alive and at the top you just have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

The bottom line here is in regards to will it actually fit, all of us idiots/experts alike are to this case specifically unimformed as to your specific task.  No one has yet in this thread said words to the effect of I have personally been there done that got the T-Shirt etc.  All we can do at this point is discuss with you from an engineering standpoint problems etc you may encounter etc specific to your issue.  If anyone here has actually tried it and can definitively say it will not work then post up.  More to the point if you are physically sat there with a true CS and Indian crank and housings in your workshop and can make a learned comparison then also post up.  I am not talking about subjective long term viability or Lister purity discussions etc here these are mute at this point.

In the light of the above you are the only one in this thread apparantly sat with a CS and Indian Crank and Housings so you have to in effect somewhat feed us.  There are those of us myself included who are encouraging you and are intrigued to see how you make out with this modification.  You have already posted that you have a 4mm axial clearance not the end of the world there as already stated shims will deal with that and that it will need to be relative to alignment of the crank pinion, etc i.e not necessarily equal gap either side.   

Now others have raised the issue of radial fit.  How do the housings compare to the originals are their mating surfaces dimensionally the same will they locate the crankshaft correctly within the block.  How is the crank pinion fit in relation to the timing gears?

Now as to the Guyfawkes and others base point if you have never done such things, or been correctly shown how to do such a task then perhaps yes you would be well advised to step away and seek good local counsel.  Forgetting for the moment the epherial discussion that you will kill innocent bystanders, merely from the point of view that you do not want to watch your engine to fail causing greater cost to you.  Personally I do not know you I therefore make no wild assumptions as to your abilities based on your posts, I basically have no justifiable idea as to what your technical adeptness is, no more than Guyfawkes knows of mine.  I merely caution you politely as to what you are doing and ask you to let us know as to how you make out.

Note on the last paragraph if you have a baseline requirement of not wanting to ever watch your engine chew itself up and therefore take great care in addressng the issues appropiately then naturally innocent bystanders as a knock on effect will benefit positively from this.  It reminds me of a conversation I once had with a crewmember who was thanking me profusely for all the hard work/maintenance I was doing as Chief Engineer in keeping the vessel afloat and moving in the correct direction across the ocean.  I merely pointed out to him that there was in fact no need to thank me as my actions were purely selfish.  My own personal healthy fear of not wanting to drown (I cannot swim) was in effect causing me to maintain the ship in such a fashion and the crew was benefiting as a knock on effect

Keep us posted Tigger.

cheers
Nobby