Author Topic: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)  (Read 15485 times)

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 01:39:30 AM »
Just to demonstrate the futility of some units.  A lot of children in UK schools actually know their weight in stone and pounds but you might be surprised at how many have no clue as to how many pounds there are in a stone!!  Me?  I weigh a little under 800 in the proper units of force :)  Any one for a game of bushells and pecks?  With or without a chain or two?

Regards, RAB

NoSpark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 03:15:46 AM »
I was surprised by Eadie's use of Fahrenheit too but it works for me, then I don't have to Google a conversion calculator  :P,  thanks. The IR guns are great but you definitely have to have a dull surface to get an accurate measurement, is that outlet nipple shinny? After about 1.5 hours with a 14amp draw my outlet temps average around 195F and I get well over 300F at an exhaust elbow about 8" away from the head.(how about those inches RAB).
Anand Powerline 6/1 ST5

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 03:59:59 AM »
i vote we come up with our own standards of measure

can you imagine the confusion for the newbie and those that happen to a story coming from a google search?

as for metric

god i hated that coming over here into the truck market 25-30 years ago! lord what a crock!

wasn't until i learned about the agreement of 1821? where all the industrializing nations all signed off on it
and gave themselves 150 years to come into compliance.

wouldn't you know it, we americans waited till the last minute of the last hour to make the change, (relatively speaking)

if we would have made the change when we went from square headed bolts to hex head most of us would have
known nothing buy metric.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 04:22:15 AM »
And to get back to the question:  When is hot too hot?  I would say when you boil...

One issue with comparing temps with an IR thermometer is emissivity.  Basically this is the ammount of IR that a particular surface radiates at a particular temperature.  For consistent results, it is best to measure the same type surface at all your test points.  I have run into this when comparing readings across different types of metal pipes, such as copper to steel or stainless  If you get a small spray can of high temp flat black spray paint, such as is used to touch up barbeques, you can shoot a small spot at each test location.  This will help with consistency between readings.  A small piece of masking tape at each location will also work, but the masking tape will eventually cook off of the exhaust.  It is best IMO to be a matte or low reflective surface/color.  

Your measured temps seem a little cold to me.

Under sustained load, that spot on the side of the cylinder head on my 6/1(on handcrank/fuelpump side) as measured with my IR runs around 200F

The water outlet pipe next tothe outlet/thermostat flange runs between 195-200F with the 195F thermostat I have installed.

Water return at the bottom of the cylinder measures between 70-90F depending on the temp returning to the heatexchanger in the secondary loop.  The water leaving the heatex secondary loop has a thermostat that opens to regulate it's flow to achieve 120F.

The exhaust pipe right where it is screwed into the exhaust flange measurs 588F.  That is after 1 1/2 hours at 3100W of electrical load on the generator.

140F out of the water outlet is WAY too cold, especially with a 176F thermostat.  That is one of the largest drawbacks with that large tank.  It takes a long time to get it up to temp.  

How big/how many GPM is that pump you are using?    I am guessing by the looks of it, it is way too big. Without a throttle or bypass on that pump to control it's output, it is cramming in large gulps of cold water from the tank bottom every time the thermostat gets hot enough to open.  IF you had a thermometer in the head itself, you would probably see it cycle up and down quite a bit.  You may even be able to see this a little with the IR, but the process of conducting thru the cast iron averages out the temps a bit.  Probably the easiest place to see it would be the water outlet as the thermostat opens and closes.  Temp swings are hard on things, and cause excess wear and tear.

Ideally, the engine would warm and the thermostat would open and allow flow.  The flow would be slow enough that the water entering at the bottom could warm to a point by the time it reaches the thermostat that the thermostat never closes.  Then all the thermostat would do is change the size of the opening to allow more or less flow and maintain a consistent temp based on the engine load.  The 6/1 must dissipate around 17,000 BTU/HR of heat thru the cooling system at full load.  That is around 283 BTU/MIN.  With the 130F difference between inlet and outlet temps above, my 6/1 must move around 2.2LB of water per minute to transfer 283 BTU/MIN of heat out of the engine.  2.2LB/MIN is right around 1/4 GPM.      

Heat in the combustion chamber is your friend.  You need it for the injector so the vegoil sprays as clean as possible.  You need it to maintain the combustion temp at a high enough level so the fuel burns cleanly and deposits less carbon in the cylinder. As mentioned, a 90C/194F thermostat would be a better choice.  

A quick check of combustion cleanlieness is to pull the injector out and see how much carbon is baked onto the tip.  You can also look down the injector hole and see a little of the piston top and IDI chamber.
  
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

adhall

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 06:23:42 AM »
Another tip regarding IR thermometers:
It is important to point the thermometer lens straight at the surface being measured. If the surface slopes away from the lens in either direction, the thermometer will read low.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

Eadie McCreadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 08:44:40 AM »
I was surprised by Eadie's use of Fahrenheit too but it works for me, then I don't have to Google a conversion calculator  :P,  thanks. The IR guns are great but you definitely have to have a dull surface to get an accurate measurement, is that outlet nipple shinny? After about 1.5 hours with a 14amp draw my outlet temps average around 195F and I get well over 300F at an exhaust elbow about 8" away from the head.(how about those inches RAB).
I used F because I thought that the majority of the users of this forum were US-based.  I just wanted my post to make as much sense to as many readers as possible.
6/1 oid.

Eadie McCreadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 08:46:17 AM »
Ummmm .... it occurred to me that I don't recall any load figures mentioned. I hope that little engine has at least 50% load on it. 75% would be better for burn-in. That will definitively affect temperatures ! So, full load is 3 kw, is there 2000W load ?
One other thing, I don't recall if you are on Diesel or veggy oil at the moment but you definitively want higher temps for veggy oil.

Jens
Jens, I start the engine on diesel and switch to veg later.

I have two electric fires for loading on the engine - about 2850w.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 12:21:43 PM by Eadie McCreadie »
6/1 oid.

Eadie McCreadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 08:49:10 AM »
The pump is a Wilo Gold 50.  It can cope with a head of 5 metres.  I don't know the flow rate.

But it does have three speeds, and it is currently set on number two.

I am no longer experiencing hot showers!
6/1 oid.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 11:50:27 AM »
i vote we come up with our own standards of measure

can you imagine the confusion for the newbie and those that happen to a story coming from a google search?

as for metric

god i hated that coming over here into the truck market 25-30 years ago! lord what a crock!

wasn't until i learned about the agreement of 1821? where all the industrializing nations all signed off on it
and gave themselves 150 years to come into compliance.

wouldn't you know it, we americans waited till the last minute of the last hour to make the change, (relatively speaking)

if we would have made the change when we went from square headed bolts to hex head most of us would have
known nothing buy metric.

bob g

Metric is great , more convenient IMHO. I am old enough to have been educated in both systems so can do both , but I prefer metric.
The problem with imperial is the multitude of standards. You guys in the US only have AF to worry about , we have (had ?) Whitworth , BS (has 2 meanings in the UK !! LOL !!) BA , Gas , BSW , UNF , BSP ,  etc , etc !!! So , multiples of tools are needed and a good memory !!  Give me Metric any day !!
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

sodbust

  • PressMaster
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
    • Oil press info and bio diesel use.
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 03:25:24 PM »
I have a 28/2 pulling about 50% power output..  My IR readings in "F" are as stated.

Ex port.. governor side 620f
Ex port  tanks side 640f
water intake 135f
water out 200f
crankcase 150f 160f

This is after an 8 to 10 hour run..

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 04:18:02 PM »
The pump is a Wilo Gold 50.  It can cope with a head of 5 metres.  I don't know the flow rate.

But it does have three speeds, and it is currently set on number two.

I am no longer experiencing hot showers!

I found some specs for that pump here:  www.wilo.co.uk/cps/p/gb-en/downloads/Wilo_Domestic_Products_-_Home_Solutions.pdf
IMO, that pump is way overkill for a lister.  At 1M of head, it can flow around  4, 7.5 or 12 GPM at the 3 respective speed settings.  So  by my math, at the lowest setting it is still trying to move 16 times the needed water thru the thermostat when it is open.  This will cause continual temperature swings and explains partially the lower temps you see on the water outlet.

I would highly reccomend a couple of "T"s so you can place a bypass valve in parallel with the pump.  This will allow you to control the amount of water that is allowed to recirculate back thru the pump.  That portion of the flow that is recirculating is not going thru the engine, so it will allow you to lower and control the ammount of flow thru the engine. 

On my secondary loop, I am using a taco 004.  At 4GPM, I think it is the smallest cartridge circulator pump they make.  Even at that, the bypass I put on it is open quite a bit.  With 70F water into the heatex, and 120F water out, about the highest flow I ever see at full engine load is 3/4 GPM... 
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Eadie McCreadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 04:44:06 PM »
Ronmar, that's on the 'to do' list.

I'm going to re-check yesterday's temp readings I left here.  Will post again shortly.

Tim McCr.
6/1 oid.

Eadie McCreadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 05:59:54 PM »
ok, today's temperatures..

At the nipple from the water outlet - 180F/88C

Middle of head - 186F/85C

Top of cylinder - 170F/76C

Middle of cylinder - 147F/63C

Bottom of cylinder - 140F/59C

Exhaust manifold - 355F/181C

Engine room ambient - 96F/35C

HTH.
6/1 oid.

rcavictim

  • Certified Generator Head and Grand Master Sparky
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
    • View Profile
a *new* measurement system to confuse us.
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 11:17:45 PM »
In science and engineering it is common to describe the power in watts or milliwatts as referenced to one watt or one milliwatt in decibels.  This results in units like dBw and dBm.

If any of you are looking for a clever *new* technical measurement by which to describe power you could use a totally legitimate one that I invented.  Decibels referenced to one Horsepower or dBhp.

Decibels is a logarithmic scale.  3 dB is a doubling of power, 6 db is a quadruplling.  10 db is x10 power, 13 dB is x20, power, 16 dB is x40 , 20 db is x100 the power, 30 dB is x1000 the power. In this case it is used to describe a quantity of power just like watts, or horsepower if you wish.  Since one horsepower = 746 watts that is the zero db reference point used like zero degrees on a thermometer.  All else will be plus or minus 0 dBhp.  74.6 watts would be -10 dBhp.  Twice 746 watts which represents two electrical horsepower or 1492 watts would be expressed as +3dBhp.  If you are making close to 3000 watts (2984 precisely) in this measurement system you would be producing +6 dBhp.

Once you have mastered that you can begin to spec your measurements and drill bit sizes in metric.  How about fractions of a centimeter.  For example, hand me that 1-5/16 centimeter drill bit please.   :D

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 04:43:23 AM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

MacGyver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 452
    • View Profile
Re: When is 'hot', too 'hot'? (6/1 clone)
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 11:41:44 PM »
dBhp?  ::)

1-5/16 centimeter drill bit?  :o

I think maybe you should double check the dosage on that prescription, eh? Make sure you're taking the right units?   ;D

Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5