Author Topic: Waste Veg Oil  (Read 22675 times)

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2006, 05:32:24 PM »
I just read this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-palm.html
A pair of Kubota engines testing refined palm oil to diesel. The Palm oil caused the biggest wear was to the piston rings. I wonder if the SVO experience is the same?
If the cylinder liner is wear resistant, then periodic piston ring changes is not too much problem if WVO is saving so much money over petrodiesel.?
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Procrustes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2006, 06:35:59 PM »
I just read this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-palm.html
A pair of Kubota engines testing refined palm oil to diesel. The Palm oil caused the biggest wear was to the piston rings. I wonder if the SVO experience is the same?
If the cylinder liner is wear resistant, then periodic piston ring changes is not too much problem if WVO is saving so much money over petrodiesel.?

Ring changes are more involved than I'd realized: <http://www.circletrack.com/howto/4639/>

Mr Lister

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2006, 09:09:07 PM »
Procrustes & list,

I followed your link to read the article on ring fitting.

Sure the guy is a pro, but he's working on high performance race engines  - not a 6hp Listeroid , rated at 18hp per ton!

The rings in the Lister have an easier life than most!

Engine wear increases with the square of the rpm.  That's why the Lister running at 650 rpm lasts for so long. The rate of wear on an engine running at 1000rpm would be more than twice that of a 650rpm engine.

Ken

Procrustes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2006, 09:55:54 PM »
Sure the guy is a pro, but he's working on high performance race engines  - not a 6hp Listeroid , rated at 18hp per ton!

The rings in the Lister have an easier life than most!

Engine wear increases with the square of the rpm.  That's why the Lister running at 650 rpm lasts for so long. The rate of wear on an engine running at 1000rpm would be more than twice that of a 650rpm engine.

Agreed.  The Lister is a top choice for an economical WVO system.  If I overstated my concerns about more frequent ring jobs it is because I've long been skeptical that WVO is a perfect replacement for diesel.  I still plan to use it myself though if I can find a convenient source.

JohnF13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
    • woodnstuff
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2006, 11:02:59 PM »
WVO is easy to use in a Lister.  The only thing you need to remember is that the oil has to be reasonably hot when it gets to the injectors.  That is pretty easy to do, you can either run a line from the water jacket in the engine through the oil tank, or have the engine and oil tank in an insulated building that keeps it pretty warm.  I do the latter, when the engine is running it gets up to about 90 - 100F in there, easily enough to pre-heat the oil.  As for the dual tanks, I actually have 3, one for diesel or bio and two for WVO.  The fuel lines run down the side of my water jacket lines into a common three into one brass fitting (you can find them in the air tools section of your local hardware store).  Make sure this fitting is close to the engine so when you do a change over to dino/bioD it doesn't take too long. I strip off the onboard filter and use filter in each line to make the change over quicker.  I have two WVO tanks so that I can be running on one while I fill the other and give time for the oil to settle - that is probably overkill because I filter the stuff pretty well  but I have the space. 
if you need to know anything else I'd be happy to give you a more detailed explanation.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2006, 11:16:54 PM »
Hello John,

If you would arrange the list of engines in your sig into one line we would not have to scroll as far. (Ok I'm really jealous you've got so many  ;D)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

oldnslow

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2006, 10:21:56 PM »
I have my 25/2 up and running on diesel.. I also went to the journey-to-forever site and got excited about making biodiesel out of WVO, but it adds time, cost, toxic chemicals (NaOH), etc. but the fuel is excellent. On one hand I want to take good care of my engine. On the other hand, these things are made to tolerate (within reason) alot of abuse. The middle ground (for me) is to get fryer oil from restaurants, filter and use it as-is. Nothing new, many are doing it. You guys might have missed this free site, kind of like Journey to Forever but not as sophisticated: http://www.jatropha.de/ it is about using the Jatropha oil in its natural state (without transesterification) in many types of diesels. check out the page where they fire up a Listeroid in India. an interesting window into a group of countries who are trying to use anything available at the lowest cost.
I can grow this plant where i live so it's tempting. another variety here grows like a weed, no pun intended. Anyway the fryer oil is just too easy. it's virtually free, has no hazardous classifications, and it is working for many. These are the good old days friends. sooner or later our EPA friends will get in the way of our free WVO. Until then.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

solarguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2006, 04:22:49 AM »
My FK 6-1 Lister sees only premium quality home brew biodiesel at an approximate cost of 0.60 per gallon.  No muss, no fuss, easy to filter, yada yada.

Also, please note that a lot of the information concerning home brewing biodiesel from the Journey to Forever website is, ummmm, there's no nice way to put this...crapola.  Do not under any circumstances use the so-called Fool Proof Method.  Bad bad science.

Alternatively, some of the brightest minds in the biodiesel home brewing universe hang out here and pass out free advice:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums

Good luck and have fun!

troy

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2006, 04:54:26 AM »
We ran biodiesel at work for 4 months. It was a midwest product from a plant set up for soy bean farmers. We had alot of problems with glyserine drop out and it seemed to be an ion conductor. Iron compounds not produced in the fuel were found in the greasy dregs of fuel purifiers and filters. We sent samples to the University of Idaho for testing.  The Biodiesel must have been taking iron ions out of the fuel system tanks, valves and pipes.
On the other hand, Seattle Biodiesel sells every gallon they make just as soon as they get it done. They have very happy customers. Must be a quality thing. I've heard that the home brewed biodiesel between SanFrancisco and Vancouver BC is the finest in the world. Pretty smart hippies.
I haven't followed it much this past year. I'd like to think the idea is spreading across the nation, it has a strong taste of self reliance and pioneering spirit. I like that.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

solarguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2006, 07:57:19 PM »
Commercial biodiesel producers are in a cuthroat commercial market and have to compete, in the US at least, with what is essentially subsidized petro fuel.  The bottom line is that many are forced to cut corners on washing, drying and quality control or they go out of business.  There are national quality standards, but it's voluntary and self policing.  Some are better than others.

The same thing is true of the petro diesel suppliers as far as quality goes.

Since my time is "free" I have the luxury of brewing premium, "nectar of the gods" biodiesel.  No issues in two years.

Finest regards,

troy


sawmiller

  • Guest
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2006, 11:27:23 PM »
solarguy

Which method do you use, KOH or NAoH and which is better.


thanks
Tim

solarguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2006, 03:36:26 AM »
I use lye, aka NaOH.  For me, at this time, it's better.  But there are tradeoffs.

KOH is more tolerant of having a little (emphasis on little) water contamination in your oilstock.  I test every batch of wvo for water content and dry it if necessary, so that has no effect on me one way or the other. 

Also, the glycerin byproduct produced with KOH is a liquid at room temperature.  With NaOH, the byproduct can turn into a pretty solid gell at room temp.  In a pipe or a pump, that's a clog.  I avoid the clogging problem by using excess methanol, approx 24% by vol of wvo.  That keeps the byproduct nice and liquid and I recover the excess anyway, so it doesn't really cost me anything.

NaOH is about a third to a half cheaper in most places, but methanol is by far the biggest expense, so no big deal either way.

Also, I make premium handmade facial soap as a little hobby/business, which also requires NaOH.

Alternatively, if you use KOH, the byproduct can be used in limited amounts as fertilizer for the potassium and organic content.  NaOH is toxic to plants.  So if you need biodiegradable herbicide, NaOH is the way to go!

Just a bit complicated.

Finest regards,

troy

oldnslow

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2006, 11:05:54 PM »
Thanks for the Biodiesel link. A whole 'nuther forum to research. What do you think about running your Listeroid up to temp on diesel, then switching to filtered straight WVO, then shutting down on diesel again? I want to try it but don't want to ruin my injector/pump. George B says there are people running on WVO up to 1000hrs, but then again Guy says 1000hrs isn't nearly enough data...so who knows.

Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

guest161

  • Guest
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2006, 10:52:10 PM »
Thanks for the Biodiesel link. A whole 'nuther forum to research. What do you think about running your Listeroid up to temp on diesel, then switching to filtered straight WVO, then shutting down on diesel again? I want to try it but don't want to ruin my injector/pump. George B says there are people running on WVO up to 1000hrs, but then again Guy says 1000hrs isn't nearly enough data...so who knows.



Its done all the time with diesel auto and truck engines. Frybrid.com

solarguy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
Re: Waste Veg Oil
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2006, 06:24:23 PM »
There are certainly folks out there that run a "two tank" system.  Start/finish on diesel (or biodiesel!) and main run on preheated well-filtered waste veggie oil.

The infopop group has a site dedicated to the "greasers", those who burn the wvo straight:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/cfrm/f/898605551

There are lots of folks who know the process pretty well and are building up a considerable amount of experience.  Mostly cars and trucks.  They are very question friendly.

Good luck and have fun!

troy