Author Topic: Which Engine Oil?  (Read 15260 times)

oliver90owner

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 10:23:31 PM »
Stan,

I was always told

You know you musn't believe everything you are told.  Apparently, still one in five of UK school children still believe the Sun goes around the Earth ???  At least at the school I am at,  a lot more students know the sun never actually stops shining and that it appears to rise in the east and appears to set in the west.  Some of them even know how fast they are moving whilst standing still. :)

Back to the oil.  The CS was never fitted with a filtration system because it was designed 70 years ago and used previous engine technology as a basis for the design.  

Very few stationary engines, in those days, had a filtration system and if they did it was most likely a bypass system.  The rest relied on sedimentation and recommended regular sump (oil pan) removal and cleaning.  Sludge was a big problem in gasoline and kerosene engines and more so when they were suddenly changed to the newer 'detergent' oils of the 50s.  Many suffered blocked oilways and major failures because of that change, without being prepared for the extra sludge being cleaned from the engine.

Modern oils are streets ahead of those lubricants.  Most new engines have full flow filters and some employ a bypass filter as an additional safeguard.  Now that very low sulphur fuels are available I would expect two things - either the oil can be made to last longer or the oil companies will reduce the additive packs (while still increasing the prices :)).  I suspect the latter.

In any case, these days the detergent oils will carry the collidal particles in suspension and they have been demonstrated as making no problems regarding engine wear.  The larger particles will either be filtered by a full flow filter before there is any possibility of that particle circulating to a bearing, or, as in the case of the CS, settle by gravity in the sump.

The main barrier to sedimentation in the CS is probably the oil viscosity.  They were long lived despite relying on that system.  Lets face it most engines were stood overnight and that was probably long enough to encourage the larger wear-causing particles to settle below the pump outlet screen, followed by gently collecting on the bottom of the sump.  The oil pump system on the CS was/is of such simple design that it is never stressed, rarely ever fails (because of it's simplicity and not requiring any extra components like pressure relief valves, full flow filters, etc).  All pumped oil in a pressure fed system is forced into and through a bearing, unless it is returned to the sump via the pressure relief valve.  The CS only uses the amount of oil it needs - very much less than that passing from a pressure system.

Anyway, bottom line is that it has nothing to do with a detergent oil or non detergent oil or nothing to do with whether it has a filter or not.  Just a different design system.  The Lister was a KISS system.  All my 1930/40s tractor engines used non detergent oils and had bypass filters.  They now work perfectly well on detergent oils and a bypass filter.  In fact better now than with those early poorer lubricants.

Regards, RAB

nobby

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 12:57:46 AM »
In any case, these days the detergent oils will carry the collidal particles in suspension and they have been demonstrated as making no problems regarding engine wear.

Just curious are you basing this statement on extensive testing of a variety of totally unfiltered engines (not even a bypass) running on Detergent Oil or merely the fact that we see no issues in todays engines with filters.  Also if you wish to state that there are many operators out their now who experience no issues running a totally unfiltered engine on detergent oil,  I would respectively submit that we are not really running enough unfiltered engines in high hour day in day out year in year out operations any more to really statistically prove either way.

The larger particles will either be filtered by a full flow filter before there is any possibility of that particle circulating to a bearing, or, as in the case of the CS, settle by gravity in the sump.

You have kind of contradicted yourself there, you recognise that the nature of Detergent/Dispersant based oils will place all the crap in suspension and that yes the larger damaging particles will get into circulation and be filtered before they get into a bearing.  Yet you say in the CS it will just settle out well, which is it?  Are you in fact saying with a Detergent Oil that particles larger than say the average filter rating of 20 micron normally stopped by a filter will NEVER find their way into circulation?

Sludge was a big problem in gasoline and kerosene engines and more so when they were suddenly changed to the newer 'detergent' oils of the 50s.  Many suffered blocked oilways and major failures because of that change, without being prepared for the extra sludge being cleaned from the engine.

Many engines back in the day did fine on Non Detergent with Conscientious engineers that made sure the covers came off regularly and all that sludge cleaned out so that it never became an issue.

To get back to the original question as already mentioned this topic is very much a controversial subject and most proponents on whatever side can lay claim to fairly extensive experience on the subject it really does fall into the Opinions - Assholes and everybody has one category.
Me I would probably either run a Non-Detergent single weight or a low detergent single weight with your current temps say a 20W.

By the way all you guys running synthetic hows your ring seat doing?  Wet stacking by any chance?

cheers
Nobby
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Stan

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 01:06:40 AM »
Yup, that's what I was going to follow up on, synthetic oil not allowing for proper wear in.  I would imagine if you operated your Lister(oid) on regular oil for a number of hours (?) under a significant load to allow for wear in, and only then converted to synthetics, it would be all right, but how much is the proper break in period for rings and cylinders on a Lister?  I dunno.

If you're wrong, and it still needs some breaking in and you convert to synthetics, you're going to have a machine that slobbers like a hungry St. Bernard!  :o
Stan

oliver90owner

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 07:31:39 AM »
Nobby,

Let me answer your points, one at a time.

the fact that we see no issues in todays engines with filters

Thats right.  Modern close-tolerance engines use the same system.  Millions of them.

state that there are many operators out their now who experience no issues running a totally unfiltered engine on detergent oilters

Exactly where did I say that?

 which is it?

One OR the other.  Read the post.

all that sludge cleaned out so that it never became an issue

Perfectly correct.  That is basically what I said.  Regular pan removal and cleaning was the order of the day.  The problems mainly arose when an unsuspecting user changed oil specification from non to strongly detergent.  Isn't that what I said?

Wet stacking by any chance

Wet stacking is generally caused by insufficient temperature and running light.  Any engine, properly bedded in, should not experience this problem if operating conditions of high temperature and load are adhered to - whatever the oil.

So I have not 'kind of contradicted yourself there'.  Either I did or I didn't.  I am usually careful with the wording of my posts - sometimes too much in a hurry - and usually it is the reader who cannot read it properly.  That is the case here, I think.  I stand by all I posted and nothing extra that you might claim that I posted.

Regards, RAB

nobby

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2008, 04:14:27 PM »
Hey RAB,
So in response to your last post I was going to write an explanation of my thoughts reasoning ect in my post.  Well figured that may run into another dissection game.  So instead I'll cut to the chase and respectively ask the following question again:

Is it your position that in an unfiltered engine running on Detergent Oil, that particles larger than say the average full flow filter rating of 20 micron normally stopped by a filter will never find their way into circulation?

cheers
Nobby
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 05:57:06 PM by nobby »
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diesel guy

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 05:52:03 PM »
Montana,

To get back on subject. Stan, Mobile Bob, Oliver90owner, Xyzer, Doug, Tom, T-19, Rcavictim as well as many others know what they are talking about and have made many very informational post.

You can review their past post to really get a handle on how to get your engine and generator operating properly for a long service life.

Good luck with your project and if you need further assistance just write in.

Diesel Guy

listerboy

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 08:27:22 PM »
Quote: "you won't find a filter good enough to get the black out of used oil

you can't even get it out with a centrifuge."

I have noticed that the oil in my diesel stays much cleaner since I installed an AMZOIL bypass filter. I can actually see through the oil on the dipstick now. Not perfectly black-free but much clearer. No connection to AMZOIL, YMMV and all that.

Stan

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 10:11:58 PM »
Lots of posts on other forums that claim the toilet paper bypass filter will clean up the "black" in used oil too.  Never tried it myself though.
Stan

nobby

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 11:08:19 PM »
Yes I to have been recently hearing of good results from the Amsoil Ea oil filters and their ability to filter reducing the blackness of the oil. Much finer filtration and a greater holding capacity.  I have an Amsoil bypass in the garage awaiting installation on my work truck.  I really should get to that.

cheers
Nobby
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 11:10:01 PM by nobby »
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Montana

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 12:34:24 AM »
Well  it looks like I opened up Pandoras box.  Any way the oil is going to have to wait.  I uncovered it Sunday and found problems right off the bat.  Missing parts and bent exhaust pushrod, hope I can straighten out.  Im going to have to do a total tear down to make sure everything is in working order.  Come to find out the engine that I bought isnt the one that was in the auction.  It was a different one.  How do I know this?  The auction had a picture of the data plate and the engine no. is different than the one I received.  Looks like Im not going to get it up and running as soon as I needed it.  Back to ebay to look for another one.
Mike
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Stan

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 12:49:12 AM »
I'd contact the Epay people, receiving a different product than that which was advertised is a sick bird (illegal).
Stan

wrightkiller

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2008, 12:59:44 AM »
DON'T wait  contact the e-bay people   ASAP       ....do not take it apart  take pictures  lots of pictures  call the guy who sold it to you  and make it public on the form so no one else gets burned    >:( :( :'(    sorry to hear about it.......BAIT AND SWITCH?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 01:01:28 AM by wrightkiller »

wrightkiller

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 02:41:29 PM »
Montana : what's  the word?  Is the guy going to make things right?   
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 02:45:34 PM by wrightkiller »

lendusaquid

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 06:09:26 PM »
Bent pushrod? sounds like something nasty has happened to that engine.

Montana

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Re: Which Engine Oil?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 11:35:08 PM »
Well here is the latest.  Emailed the guy and he wants pictures of the damaged parts.  That isnt a problem.  Im not sure if the picts will show the bend in the pushrod or not.  But the missing intake elbow is kind of obvious.  He asked me if I want to keep the engine or return it.  I havent decided, I just dont wont to have to pay shipping again or loose the shipping money I have already paid for.  Any way I dont think that the damage is beyond repair.  Just send the replacement parts and I'll be happy.   

On another note.  It looks like Im the new owner of a 12/1 Powerline.  I thought it was in Missouri but its in Mississippi, now I have to find a shipper to get it to me. 
Totally off Grid and Loving It :)
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