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Author Topic: new power line 6hp smoke?  (Read 9261 times)

halfcrazy

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new power line 6hp smoke?
« on: October 08, 2008, 12:35:31 AM »
I have a new power line 6hp and i have issues starting it now and then and when i do i get a lot of white smoke. where do i look first?

cujet

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2008, 12:41:21 AM »
White smoke is generally due to a cold engine and the resulting very incomplete combustion. Many diesel engines do this. I would guess this is what you are seeing.

Mine smokes blue for a bit, until a good load is put on it. Some of the smoke is due to the oil I pour on the valves seeping down the guides. Some, I am sure, is due to ring seating in a cold engine.

Chris
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Tom

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2008, 12:45:52 AM »
If it is not cold and you are using pump diesel then I would pull the injector and check the spray pattern. White smoke is usually unburned fuel.
Tom
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t19

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2008, 03:59:46 AM »
after the first few puffs of smoke on start up, mine runs nice and clean.  Do you have clean fuel?  check the injector.. what about water in the fuel filter??  how long have you run this beast to warm her up and get her settled?

mine has started at -30 C, second attempt, very little smoke, on pump diesel.  I do not have the change over on this machine, have not found a need for it

regardless that does not sound right, all the units I have seen run, run clean on start up
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halfcrazy

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2008, 11:03:19 AM »
Sorry i should have gave more details. the white smoke is when i try to start it but it doesnt fire. i have run the engine very little like maybe 2-3 minutes 3 times then i got the battery chargers hooked up and ran it for an hour the other day at 2400 watts it really seemed to like that and it started better after that? maybe it needs to be broke in

diesel guy

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2008, 05:31:46 PM »
You should always check the timing on a new engine first. Then you can eliminate one thing at a time to cure the problem.
Diesel Guy

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2008, 05:48:00 PM »
Sorry i should have gave more details. the white smoke is when i try to start it but it doesnt fire. i have run the engine very little like maybe 2-3 minutes 3 times then i got the battery chargers hooked up and ran it for an hour the other day at 2400 watts it really seemed to like that and it started better after that? maybe it needs to be broke in

Has the injection system been bled down well?
Are you sure there's not still air in it?
Steve

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carlb23

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2008, 06:07:52 PM »
I know that I thought i had bled the fuel system properly when I first got my engine and i was experiencing the same situation as you. After taking the time to bleed the injection pump properly (removing the check valve etc) and purging the high pressure line correctly the problem went away for good.  One indication that i had was the engine would sometimes start and only turn a few revs before shutting down. Other times it would just give a puff of white smoke out of the muffler.


Carl

ronmar

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 07:52:20 PM »
Carl described air in the system perfectly.  That is most likley what you are experiencing, although this being a new engine, nothing should be taken for granted so the suggestion to check valve and spill timing is also an excellent one. 

One issue that takes a little time to work out is that the rubber fuel lines when new trap air bubbles along their iner skin and the thump of the engine takes a little time to work them all loose.  They of course make their way to the fuel filter and injector pump and cause these type issues.  Re-bleed the system throughly while tapping all the lines with a screwdriver handle to help dislodge the trapped air. 
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

xyzer

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 01:22:59 AM »
Also make sure you have no high spots in the high pressure line for air to get traped. It is a process for sure!
Dave
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halfcrazy

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 11:40:21 PM »
what should the valves be set at and should it be done hot or cold? also what is and how do i set "spill timing"?

ronmar

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 01:41:33 AM »
On a 6/1 Inlet valve is set to .017" and exhaust is set to .032" when the engine is cold. 

As for spill timing,  It gets that name from the fuel spilled while it is done:)  This info is how I do it based on info collected from a lot of smart people on this and other forums.

The injector pump consists of a piston or plunger in a barrel.  The piston is pushed up by the camshaft lobe.  The fuel from the filter enters the barrel thru a port on the side.  At some point, as the piston is pushed up, it covers and closes this port.  This is the start of the injection process.  It is this point that we want to occur at a particular time in relation to the crankshaft rotation.  In the case of the 6/1 we want it to occur at 20 degrees before Top Dead Center or BTDC.  The fuel on top of the injector plunger is pushed up thru a check valve and into the high pressure pipe to the injector.  Once the piston compresses the fuel to a high enough pressure, The set spring in the injector is overcome, and the valve pops open and fuel is sprayed. 

To find this point, you need a few things:
First off you need to accurately find Top Dead Center.  This can be done by removing the injector and inserting a rod down in the injector hole till it touches the piston top with the piston a little below TDC.  Lock this rod in place with a clamp so it is rigid.  When I did it I used a 6" long 1/4" drive socket extension and the injector clamp to solidily fix it in place.  Next slowly roll the flywheel till the piston comes up solid against the rod and mark this position on the flywheel.  Most people I think use the bolt that holds the fuel rack bellcrank as a timing mark as it is out close to the flywheel.  That is what I do and it works good.  Once I have this first mark, I slowly rotate the flywheel nearly 360 degrees the other direction till I come up solid against the rod.  You want to do this slowly as you don't want to hit the rod hard and possibly damage something.  Once you have these 2 marks, TDC will be found half way between them.  IE if the marks are 2 inches apart, TDC will be 1" from either mark.  Remove the rod and make a good permanent mark for TDC.  I used a square and scribed a small line across the entire face of the flywheel and marked it with a "0" on the edge of the wheel.

Next you need the 20 degrees BTDC mark.  To get this measure the circumference of the flywheel face.  Once you have this number divide by 18 (20 degrees is 1/18 of 360).  Take your answer(should be around 4") and measure clockwise when setting and facing the wheel, from the TDC mark and make another mark with a 20 degree lable.  Since it is before TDC, in normal rotation, the 20 mark should pass the timing mark(bellcrank bolt) before the TDC mark does. 

Once you have those 2 things, with the fuel turned off, remove the high pressure pipe from the pump.  Once the pipe is off, remove the fitting on the top of the pump that the pipe was connected to.  This fitting has a spring and a check valve fitting under it, so don't loose them as you remove the fitting.  Once off, remove the spring, and the little check valve plunger that it sets on and re-install the threaded fitting without them.  Rotate the engine till it is just before TDC on the compression stroke(both valves closed). Lower the fuel control lever like you do when you start the engine, then turn on the fuel valve.  Here is where the spill part comes in.  Slowly rotate the flywheel backward toward that 20 degree BTDC mark.  At some point, hopefully at 20 degrees, fuel will start to flow from the top of that fitting on top of the injector pump.  Use a rag to absorb/wick the fuel away so you can see it flowing up out of the fitting.  Slowly rotate the flywheel in the normal direction till the fuel just stops flowing.  You want the fuel to just stop flowing at the 20 degree BTDC mark.  That fuel spoppage markes the fuel inlet port closure and the start of the injection pump stroke.  If it is not at 20 BTDC, you need to lengthen or shorten the adjuster rod under the pump to make it occur at 20 BTDC. The adjuster rod/bolt and lock nut are real difficult to access. Once this is done, shut off the fuel, re-install the plunger and spring under the fitting making sure everything is VERY clean, then install the HP fuel pipe and injector(don't forget the copper washer at the injector tip). 

Leave the upper HP pipe fitting where it meets the injector loose.  While operating the injector pump(rolling the flywheel back and forth across the injection point is way easier than cranking hte flywheel) with the fuel on, look for first bubbles then fuel to be comming from that upper fitting then lock it down.  If you have gotten all the air out, as you continue to rock the flywheel back and forth thru the injector firing area you should be rewarded with first a drumroll(several rapid pulses) from the injector then a single "creak" as it squirts fuel.

Once you get the injector creak, crank her up and see if she will fire when you drop the compression release.

Ron     
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

carlb23

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 12:54:19 PM »
Great Post Ron

oliver90owner

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 07:27:13 PM »
halfcrazy,

Most are corrrect in that white smoke indicates unburned fuel.  However it seems to be oerlooked that it may be low comprerssion that is the culprit. 

It may be the injector spray pattern but all diesels require the compression to adiabatically raise the gas temperature above the ignition point for the fuel.  The CS original design was for a 'cold start' engine and the requirement was specifically to increase the combustion temperature sufficiently by raising the compresssion ratio (CR) at start-up. 

Indirect ignition systems lose more heat to the surrounding metal as the gases are channelled into the precombustion chamber and although once running at speed the problem disappears, hand cranking is not fast enough if the CR is low or leakage (air passing the rings) is excessive.  Until the rings are bedded in properly you may have one of the problems above. If the squish (bump clearance) is not correct the problem may remain even then.

Clownes seem to be prone to manufacturing deficiencies.  My misspelling of 'clones' was on purpose.  Manufacturing quality control sems to be a laugh!! Your problem could befairly minor (bedding in ) to fairly major (misaligned components - viz. rods pistons , rings and cylinders).

That is why many buy (relatively) cheaply and then immediately proceed to re-engineer their engines to make them serviceable.

You may have a simple fix (run it in) or a build-problem that needs fixing before the engine wears itself out prematurely.

Good luck.  By all means start looking at the simple fixes first, but don't be surprised if they don't sort it.

Regards, RAB

horsefly76

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Re: new power line 6hp smoke?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 01:45:16 AM »
what should the valves be set at and should it be done hot or cold? also what is and how do i set "spill timing"?

Halfcrazy I had a lot of problems with my Metro 6/1's fuel filter housing assy sucking air after a day or two causing problems starting ie a lot of half hearted puffes of white/black smoke because of air in the injector line/pump/

My $0.02 worth.
 
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