Why Not Sterling/Steam?Why Llisteriod IC?

[SteveU.]

Hello All,
I get asked this weekly by some friend, neigbor or family member. The most recent was this week when talking to a forum member on the telephone about my "Turning wood into electricity" project.  So I'll dump out some of seven months collected research sources that led me here to being a Listeriod owner.
Short answer: more efficient of my fuel and labor time. Here's why.
(Wife wants me to clean up my accumulated stack of info on welders/welding, AC gen heads, Permanet Magnet Generators, engines, mountings gasifiers ect., ect. and the Stirling and steam stuff is on the bottom of the pile at the beginning of this quest.)
I wont bore you too much with whats already been posted on this forum by adhall, Doug, Skeeter, Shipchief, and many other members here under other threads. Look in Advanced Search. I did.

Stirling engines: simple, light and compact, clean and quiet, ulitmate multifuel capable and modern sexy! !

You can Wikipedia history and general development. Here's where I found  what's available Today in our power ranges:
http://www.infiniacorp.com      They currently make and sell a 1kWe Stirling engine with encluded/enclosed AC linear alternator. This is for sale and being used by:
www.gocpc.com     in a small compact BioMax 1.8kWt portable mobile gasifier plant. CPC shows an actual picture if you dig through their web site. Note the auger style chip/pellet fuel dribble feed into the top of the gasifier assembly.Next: 
http://www.sunpower.com/index.php?pg=25
This will put you on their Power Generations Publications page. You can see a development work from 1969 to 2005. Open up Micro Scale Biomass Power and you will see their 1.1kWe Stirling BioWatt engine being used. You can buy this engine too. It comes also with an enclosed AC linear alternator Free with the engine.
Yeah, 1kw aint much. But both are NASA speced with a 40,000 hour life cycle. Both companies show development of larger 3 and 5kw units but none in useage yet. Sunpower site from the home page and in some of the papers gives good numbers on thermal efficiency: improvement of 16-17% to now 21-23%.
For a bigger more useable  Stirling engine go to:
http://www.stirlingengine.com/ecommerce/category-browse.tcl?category_id=2     They sell a book showing how you too can make a 5hp/3.7kw engine. Doesn't look to be using any high tech, just lots and lots of fabrication on a one off unproven design.
The current Stirling engine long answer is: too small, too expensive in $$ or labor for no better efficiency.

Steam: good old iron and steel, proven engineering, also ultimate multifuel and slow, slow style romantic! !

For the very best article of todays what, how and why of steam engines read this article by a true steamer named Skip Goebel at:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/goebel43.html      This is an article I think adhall refered to in the past. It in very well written with the math to back up to back up Mr goebels statments. He says it's cheaper, less labor to buy a diesel genset and fuel. Want to burn wood? Gasify and run in an IC engine. Still want to steam? Through his company Tiny Steam he'll build you a sealed bearing modern engine.
For a real steam treat look here:
http://www.pioneertelephonecoop.com/~carlich/RSE/RSEengines.html        the web site of Reliable Steam Engine Co. Current production engine kits from 4 to 200hp. Boilers too.
Wow! Makes me want too build his 5hp turbine kit with his Roberts bulk wood wood boiler.
Problem is: using Skip Goebels math it would eat up 30-40% More wood than gasifing through a Listeriod. My wood may be "free" but it still takes a lot of labor(mine) to get into a useable form.
The current steam engine long answer is: too labor intensive, still can't match IC engine efficiency and still a space (with the boiler, condenser,ect) and water hog.

So thats why I'm here with you all in Lister/iod land. I like it here.

Enjoy
SteveU.

O K links finally fixed now. I think. Sorry. SU

[rcavictim]

I am interested in a sterling that I can put at the focus of a solar dish.  I am basically just studying what is currently out there, which isn't much yet.  It would be nice if I could build my own since the cost of a commercially made unit large enough to satisfy my requirements would be totally beyond my means. 

I am attracted to the simple resonant type that moves a piston in and out with no con rod or rotational mechanizm.  A magnet could be attached to the piston and moved in and out of a solenoid coil to make AC power.  These can be tuned to operate at a fixed frequency, hence the popular label for this type of engine... 'resonant' Sterling engine.  I remember seeing some small test tube sized ones on U-toob.

With a sterling in addition to a max of ~30% conversion of solar energy collected to electricity you have heat that needs to be carried away.  This could provide hot water to heat your home or shop.

[SteveU.]

Yes rcavictim practical Stirling engines is somthing I've watched for 40 years to mature to everyday usibility. Still waiting. The efficiency improvments all seem to have been achieved through new expensive high tech materials. Mr Stirlings idea still works with common materials but only if very big and heavy. Mike M. says he working on an idea.
Look on the home page of stirlingengine.com under Stirling Engine Forum/Power producing Stirling engines and there are at least four references to solar heated engines.
Here on the Pacific side of the Cascade mountians we only get useable solar for real power when we need it the least in August. Our solar desification and storage is growing trees.

SteveU.

[rcavictim]

This is a unique application of a sterling engine early in the last century to power a phonograph record player with an alcohol burner flame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5-s3b_0S0

[rcavictim]

Here is what I was taking about, a DIY linear action sterling resonant electrical power generator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZUTiwSj2cI&NR=1

[rcavictim]

Here is a commercial prototype solar sterling dish generator.  10 kW electrical output capability.  I want one!   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4joQSkQ1_M&NR=1

[SteveU.]

Yes I peeked at the the Utube vidios.(Won't have bandwidth available for full viewing untill late in my evening.) The interest in Stirling developement is still very active. Problem still remains it's either big as a house or small toy like, ineffective for any useable power generation.

Rcavictim you have my vote to be the designated forum Stirling watcher.

I'll take modern Steam.

Reguards
SteveU.

[rcavictim]

Yes I peeked at the the Utube vidios.(Won't have bandwidth available for full viewing untill late in my evening.) The interest in Stirling developement is still very active. Problem still remains it's either big as a house or small toy like, ineffective for any useable power generation.

Rcavictim you have my vote to be the designated forum Stirling watcher.

I'll take modern Steam.

Reguards
SteveU.

Concentrated Solar Power aka CSP, driving a Stirling engine/generator has achieved 30% conversion of sunlight to electricity in commercial sized prototypes making 25 kW.  That is highest efficiency conversion achieved of any of the solar technologies so far.  As I understand it, what is holding up mass deployment of solar Sterling dish power right now is the lack of availability of a mass produced, relatively low cost stirling engine suitable for the task.  Current bets favor one or other multi cylinder designs that were initially conceived to be automobile power plants.  One of these I think has been around since the 1960's.

I'll keep the forum appraised of any major advances I learn of, or any unclassified activity in this direction that I might become involved in.  CSP is at it's infancy right now and is definitely going to become a growth industry of tremendous long term potential.

[compig]

Wonder what efficiency large scale gas/coal/oil fired steam turbines in power generation plants achieve ?

[rcavictim]

Wonder what efficiency large scale gas/coal/oil fired steam turbines in power generation plants achieve ?

That should be easy to find out.  Heard of Google?     Also try wikipedia.org .

[compig]

Well , what will they think of next !!     Just thought I'd add another element to the discussion

[mbryner]

Hi SteveU and others,

Funny you mention www.gocpc.com in the list of stirling manufacturers.   They also make gasifiers.   I called them about 6 mos ago.  They wouldn't even talk to me unless I had $500k ready to plunk down and wanted >20kw power.   Not very friendly people.   They said they wouldn't have anything smaller scale available for years (even though their website mentions off-grid residential power, etc.).   That's what eventually led me to Jim Mason (after a couple more google searches).   BTW, my gasifier is starting to take shape.  I'll post a link to some pics on the gasifier thread.

Marcus

[SteveU.]

Hi Marcus I started this specific thread so I would not have to confuse the gasifacation thread with my Listeriod discovery trail. I'm not surprised by CPCs response. They are obvoiusly following the government/grant money pie. Contact Sunpower and I'm sure you'll find the same; (someone else was quoted $15k USD for one off unit) in one of their reports the projection was $350. USD each in lots of 10,000.
With four days of rain now I'm sure the mud has now driven you to inside projects. Oh well it's November on the wetside.

Compig I live alongside of one of the major rivers in the world. So after three Nuke plants, 13 major/9 minor hydroelectric dams, one surface/mined coal and three natural gas thermoelctric plants proposed, built, operated, and some now decomissioned that I've lived with around me it would be hard for me to believe the quoted efficiency numbers for large scale from any source.
I'm not paranoid. The black helicopters I see are real. They are DEA/Local efforts looking for pot growers and meth labs up past us in the forests.    I do wave.    Best to be friendly.
What is telling is that all the commercial (have to pay their own way and make a profit) ships built and commisioned in the last thirty years have all been IC heavy oil fuel powered. No gas, coal, or nuke steamers piston or turbine.

Rcavictim the very good efficiency numbers for 9 gasier plants from 15MWe to 160KWe shown in WBTP#296 was 7.1 to 21.8% overall. Throw out the high/low the average was 14.56%. All IC spark and Compression Ignition piston engines. Fuels were wood, charcoal, peat, coconut shell and husks, and rice chaff.
The gasifers themselves were 68-77% thermally efficient.
I'm still researching modern small steam. So far the boilers are  consitently reported as 70% efficient.

Later all
SteveU.