Author Topic: Electric starter\Generator combo  (Read 22521 times)

Petersbpus

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Electric starter\Generator combo
« on: October 28, 2008, 04:53:25 PM »
Gas Golf starter\generator, So far seems to work like a charm!! 9 tenth’s HP
I had reversed the rotation to mount it in the best spot, next to the alternator head, it spun and started the Listeroid, but it wouldn’t charge and continued to consume amps when the engine was up and running, 
I got the unit on consignment from my neighbor (in the golf cart business), along with the stock voltage regulator to test and see if it would work as conceived.
He also got a factory wire diagram to get the general idea of function.
Had t make a trip to the battery\starter shop to find a workable serpentine belt pulley 2.55in OD, 2.32in at belt grove tops., My math makes that about 10 to 1 or at least 6000 rpm, just about what is spins on the golf cart at full governed speed.
The no load rpm was right at 4000, I figured if I could spin it faster than that it would charge . Kind of like driving an electric motor to push electric back into the grid.
The test battery is an old one and not fully charged so I hope the charging amps will go down as they should with a new battery or a full charge on this one.
I know that I will be consuming about 8 amps DC for nichrome injector line heater and
Whatever the Gold wing 1000 radiator 12volt fan uses.  Plus a few solenoids.

But if the charging amps stay too high, can I add a resistor in the DF line ???or a rheostat to turn down the amps to just replenishment of used amps.. I don’t want to burn to much HP making DC. Although I could charge up my battery\inverter bank,
The regulator is a small metal cube, electronic, with red, black and green wires. The green goes to the DF on the unit.
The hot wire is engaged thru a solenoid which stays closed with the engine running to return the charging amps back to the battery.

Any comments on the HP I will consume with this thing?
Method to manually adjust the amp output if it is needed?
Is this more efficient at making DC than an alternator?
Why would it not charge in the other rotation? a diode in there somewhere?, that's only needed for AC??

I have my neighbor checking on the cost of  the volt regulator, but he said they are expensive (genuine EZ GO part) He hasn't told me how much he's going to charge me for the starter and regulator as yet.
 I don’t see why an old style 12v  automotive regulator wouldn’t work, you may have to go for a really old one like for a generator,
now  I’m dating myself.
Any way here it is,,,, out for comment.
Bob


Similar units on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160293801327&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

Video of test run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS5_sDLmtKs
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

SteveU.

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 06:16:08 PM »
Hello Bob,
Sorry your Youtube shows as no longer available.Would have liked to see your install.
Unfortunatly I am old enough to remember when everything mostly was generators except big LeeceNeville alts on emergency vehicles using external "fish plate rectifiers" becouse power diodes had not been developed yet.

Yes you will be able to use a automotive style Generator regulator. The problem will be sourcing and idenifing one that will function and not allow over heating on charging to burn up the armature.
Your safest bet would be to work locally with a local Auto Electric Rebuilder if you can find one with an old, old generator man. The young guys will only know enough to be dangerous(to your unit).
But most all the old guys are gone early due to cancers from the Triclorethylene, lead, asbestos, and tobacco.

If the same as the Ebay, your unit is enlosed/nonventitated, half the field housing is stuffed with motor coils and the armature windings will be much larger lower resistance motor style. All these mean you are only going to be to safely allow charging at 8-15 amps. A DC segmented commutator generator is stupid. No diodes. Very poor self regulation capabilty. It will charge it's heart out (overamp) in short order, overheat and burn up. It will produce 30-40-100+ volts as the RPM climbs. And then when stopped, drain you battery dead through the brushes on now stationary armature.

So a DC automotive style generator need a speed sensing CUTOUT from the battery. It needs VOLTAGE control. It needs LOAD (amperage) limiting. In the old days this was done through individual coil/spring balancing mechanical points. Or for volts and amps by adjustable brushes or load/battery size limits.

Since the Electronic replacement seems to be doing the cutout and volt control functiod OK then if you just match it up to a smaller amp/hour battery just like old tractors, VWs and industrial/sail boats all used; you will be OK.
Generator Rule #1 : Too hot to hold your hand against -- it is will die in minutes.
One of these sharp electronic fellows could thermosense the field case to control the existing DF circut to control amps output too.

Let of time let me know if you really want to know the whys/hows of rotation changes.

SteveU.
 
 
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

Petersbpus

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 07:16:48 PM »


Hello,
the vedio is there, try again, or search some of the title words below
"Listeroid with electric starter and DC generator"
You did confuse me a bit on the electrical end, I know from my AC research that some windings are spiral, my neighbor did warn me that it may not work as a generator if the rotation was changed, that's ok it's working now.
The solenoid cuts off the unit when disengaged, (turn off manual switch) The problem I may have is with auto shutdown, so I may need a manual 12vdc bypass for start then a 125v relay to maintain the circuit that will release when power of cut.
I will have to try it on a smaller capicity fully charged battery.
My old VW had a big can mechanical regulator on it's generator, one of those should work, I was hoping for something also manually adjustable.
I will monitor case temps.
Bob

Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

wrightkiller

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 07:34:43 PM »
Bob : that's quite the setup ....liked the video to..     did the starter/gen come with the serpentine belt pulley ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 09:04:55 PM by wrightkiller »

SteveU.

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 08:05:14 PM »
Hello Again.
Glad you got it generating. I did not mean to be confusing. This generator/starter technology is/was a mature 100+ year developement hard to summerize simply. It's obsolete knowledge now. And it can be very tricky to someone with a lot of AC training and exprience. The assumptions I make with AC is sometimes pretty good at vaporizing copper. I have an electrician Brother-in-law to help me with that. And someday maybe I'll convince him to crimp; then solder, all his automotive connections, and that green shit on battery terminals is always Bad. Yes, just as bad as the blue/white shit Bro.

All Robert Bosch VW generator regulators will have both a set of cutout and voltage control points inside. Some will have current limiting built into the voltage control points. You can ID the cutout points by the heavier windings on the coil. The voltage control points will have fine wire. A dual volt/current set will have both: fine on the inner; heavy on the outer.

You can adjust your voltage.
You carefully bend the spring anchor arm. This was common. They used to have knerled knobs or screw anchors. After adjusting let in run with the cover on to temperature stabilize for final voltage. With bimetals they are temperature compemsating. It's fun to do. Ussually good for 1.5 volts down, 2.5 volts up.

One of the reasons alternators with their smooth low amp circut slip rings replaced DC generators with high amp segmentated commutators was brush life. Automotive: 25-30,000 miles versus 90-125,000 miles. I would advise you to start sourcing brushes now.

Great idea. Ebay was showing three units available. Bid at $99. USD.

Enjoy
SteveU.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 08:08:28 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

Petersbpus

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 08:55:41 PM »
Origional pully was 3" (78 mm) v belt with standard 17mm unkeyed shaft, Had to make a trip to battery\starter  shop and wait around while they searched here and there for a pully to get the 10 to 1 ratio and the 6 ribs to match my Metro flywheel.
POI- this metro is NOT like some of the older ones I have read reports on in this forum, It was sandy as all get out and alot of poor workmanship. over the top.
Metro is only a reseller of thers work so not consistant, If I had it to do over I would spend the extra cash to go Powersolutions or one of George's kits,
But it's kind of hard to put something together that you haven't taken apart (to assemble a kit) ,  and repair will be easy cause' I know the inner workings. that's how I help justify the hundreds of hours I have burned on this project in the last, almost exactly 6 months. The rebuild\repaint was just 6 weeks.

On the golf cart,,, the 3" pully is run by an 8", and governed speed was said to be about 2500rpm, so I fugured anything around 6000 would be good, couldn't go to small or the belt would loose to much traction.
I suspect for continious running overheating is going to be problematic, ??? Maybe a separate cooling system for the starter ;) a tiny thermoshphon tank ;D

Hope I can find an old or NOS 12v VW Bosch regulator, shouldn't be too hard, haven't owned a VW since 1981.
low frequency  vibrations on copper, be it wire crimps or tube is bad. Soilder the crimp fittings!!
I saw brush kits for these starter\gens right on eBay, same people selling the units.
Bob
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

matt

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2008, 01:35:08 AM »
Hi Petersbpus,

I am so glad you got that running. I have been thinking about this kind of setup for a while and raised the issue here......

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=2952.msg36008#msg36008

I have found an old auto generator from the 1960's (the kind before the alternators took over) in great condition about a year ago.
I have applied 12v and it motors over very nicely. Only thing is the rpm would be around 1000-2000 - not very high so I do not know if it will be fast enough tol spin the listeroid to starting speed.
When I get around to it I will try it. I intend to, one day, do exactly as you have.

It is an ingenious idea and you are to be congratulated for making it work !!!!!!  The Listeroid equivalent of a Start-O-Matic!!


On other issues, I notice from your video that you have a solenoid set up at your fuel rack. Have you posted pics of these anywhere?

Thanks and WELL DONE!!

regards,
matt

Tom

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2008, 02:29:06 AM »
Matt,

The starter generators are quite different inside compared to an automotive generator. You might not get the necessary torque to crank the Lister over with out burning out the windings.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Petersbpus

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2008, 02:57:59 AM »
Matt,
I have read your post about the starter\generator more than once, most likely was my inspiration!
I was a little surprized how disappointed that I was when I got the unit all hooked up and runninjg then realized and confirmed that it wasn't producing amps but still consuming them, every thing was jumper wires and misc. cables, so I reasoned that this affected the electronic regulator system, so I made all nice tight cables bolted everything down for good grounding and it still didn't work. Bummer,
It was almost like my dog died suddenly or something, It was another week before I jury rigged new brackets on the other end of the listeroid, reversed the rotation and gave it a test, Zowie, equal amount of elation from sucess!!


The fuel soleniod Has only just mechanical linkage hooked up,, vicegrip still holding the bracket in place, not yet wired, AM now rethinking how I want it to function,
1- as currently configured, hold coil engergized but pull coil would not recieve its ground until a fault occoured, then pull rack closed. and the hold coil would hold for a timed period(requiring a setable timer relay) Mechanically simple but electrically more complex.
2- change position of solenoid to hold the rack open against a spring that would slam it closed when the fault occoured and solenoild released.
This seems a little better method. cause it depends upon things NOT happening to shut down instead of things must happen to shut down.
Considering solenoid for compression release and maybe the 240 volt breaker.
I do have some pics of solenoid setup and linkage of my 1115  China single
Now that I have taken 6 months for this project  so far and summer is over, (in Florida) I really have till next May or June before I will run Air Cond., refrigeration  hard enough to realize my goal to save on power bill by making my own with free fuel. Will supply all my hot water too.
I seens like my break even point with that savings  now would be years and years.

I like to drone on, but I don't repeat myself  too much.
 too much.
Building a nice heirloom however.
I figured there would be some negitive feedback out there, where are the nay sayers??
Whats the power loss running this thing?? and would be better off hand cranking and using 125V charger??
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

SteveU.

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2008, 03:16:28 PM »
Bob I think most of us have learned the hard way now where these engines are concerned it is best to just let a guy run with an idea so long as it's safe. You've proven with the right unit this works fine as a starter-- thats real good. Now to see how well it will generate for you.
Your set up is safe due to the belt drive.

Matt, Tom is right. A generator will motor weakly. A DC motor will generate weakly this is due to the different winding sizes, brush positioning and sizing internally.
Bobs unit is a compromize design will both sets stuffed into the same case. These were made by DelcoRemyUSA and RobertBosch(Germany) also.

A trick idea would be a starter motor with an electric AC clutch grafted onto it belt driving the flywheel for startups. I used to do these kind of things for fun. But I sold/gave away all of that stuff two careers ago. Bobs is all off the shelf pieces. With replacments available. Best way to go.

SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

oliver90owner

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2008, 06:07:26 PM »
SteveU is right.  Just think about each.  A dynamo probbaly produces max 20 amps or so at 12 volt, while a starter motor consumes around 200amps and maybe more at start-up.  Machines are not even in the same ball park, let alone relying on a dynamo to operate as a motor.

Regards, RAB

matt

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2008, 09:33:41 PM »
Thanks SteveU and RAB for the info on dynamos.

I will keep the differences in mind, but you can't blame me for still wanting to give it a go. :)
This would explain why the generator motors over at relatively low RPM.

On the other hand, my father-in-law tells me he and his mates used to use auto generators as motors in their home made go-carts.
He said they went along pretty well!!

RAB I understand that starters would use 200A, but in this case Bob shows us his starter/gen uses 27A. We can see in the video that initially it consumes up around the 60A mark, but comes down pretty quick as it comes up to speed and required initial torque drops off.

Sure I accept that my dynamo is not the right tool for the job, but it is real fun experimenting...especially for little or no $$$

When I get around to trying it and burning out my dynamo I will let you know. :D

regards,
matt

Petersbpus

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 08:58:26 AM »
Here's my first attempt to post a pic,
stsrter\\generator bolted in final location and a factory diagram of how it's wired in the golf cart

[/img]

[/img]
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

listeroidsusa1

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2008, 12:47:46 AM »
The starter/generator combo units work pretty good but your charging problem is the most common fault with these units. I've rebuilt bunches of these and most of the time the fault is with a automotive voltage regulator. The delco units as supplied to Cub Cadet, Simplicity, Case, and others are limited to a 15 amp charging rate. Automotive regulators typically charge from 25 to 45 amps, depending upon the make. More than 15 amps and you are looking at a burned out charging winding. Another item to look out for is the type of regulator. There are "A" type and "B" type. One makes contact with the field to negative and the other completes the circuit from negative through the regulator and breaks the positive line. In other words, one sinks and one sources the voltage. All shunt wound generators will motor if power is applied and the field connected. Its a way to tell if the unit is good or not. The starter/generator is only half a generator (hence only 15 amps) and half a starter. The windings are a bit wierd but they do work well.

I've been playing with another option, using a ST 3 phase generator as a starter/generator. The generator is basically the same construction as a brushless servo motor if power is applied to the field. Hooking up a brushless motor servo drive and an encoder makes the ST into its own starter. It is necessary to use a 3 phase contactor to isolate the voltage from the mains when using the servo drive. I'm still working the setup and small bugs out. I also have a ST head that had the windings damaged in shipping that I'm rewinding as a 12 pole unit that will be direct connected to the engine shaft and generate 60 hz at 600 rpm. We'll see how it works out.

Petersbpus

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Re: Electric starter\Generator combo
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 05:09:20 AM »
I appreciate the heads up on the burn point of the generator windings,
I'm thinking that because I won't have the dust moisture situation as in a golf cart, I can remove the rubber brush covers  to let out some heat, maybe glue or clamp chunks of finned heat sink all over it until it looks like a porcupine.

The existing factory electric regulator has three wires hot ( direct on the input positive), ground again direct top battery,
And a small #16 green wire to the DF terminal of the unit,
Is this type  A or B or more inportant for hunting down a mechanical adjustable one on internet is that Ford, VW, Chevy 1960 to mid 70's configuration.??

They are all listed by application.
Bob P.
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold