The Return

[listerboy]

On second thought, it's not my place to judge. Original message deleted and my apologies to anyone I offended.

[SteveU.]

You're a wiser man than I MK.

Listerboy if you would look over the Wizard thread on this board there is some discussion about 2 cylinder 4 stoke engines. I would like to hear more about your experiences with your unussual two cylinder China diesel. I'm sure others would be interested also.

Thank You
SteveU.

[listerboy]

OK SteveU,

It's an 8kw from Imperial Diesel.  http://www.imperialdiesel.com/generators.html#eight 
The lc-285 engine is made in three different configurations, 2, 3 & 4cyl and apparently larger sizes but probably not with the same basic German (Chinese manufactured) engine design.  It's rated at 18hp @ 2200rpm on the data plate but is de-rated to 15 @ 1800 for the 4 pole Mecc-Alte. The casting and finish work on the outside of the engine are rather crude looking  but so far it's been reliable, but that's not saying much because it has less than 100 hours on it. The Murphy safety system saved it once when the after-market electric fan quit. That was my fault; I didn't put the retainer clip back on the blade shaft after reversing the air flow.
A few after-market goodies help it keep going; a Goldenrod fuel filter/water separator, 14" 12v electric fan mounted on the radiator with too much $ in Evans NPG+ coolant in it (radiator remote mounted to eliminate vibration damage, yes, it vibrates), adjustable thermostat for the fan, Amzoil bypass filter, filter mounted oil cooler (a finned aluminum sleeve that wraps around the oil filter), block and oil pan heaters for the winter time and a Donaldson air cleaner. I used the tap on the side of the air cleaner to run a hose to the valve cover for PCV. That helps keep the oil leaks at a minimum and the crankcase fumes out of the shed.

 Shipping weight was around 700 lbs and I guess without the crate it's 625-650 so it dosen't move around. It's mounted (oh no...here we go again) on two 14x14x26" wooden blocks that sit on 1/2" thick rubber iso-sheets. I've loaded it up with 10,000 watts for 20 minutes just to see what would happen and it didn't seem to mind with just a bit of black smoke but some lost rpm. The Kill-a watt measured 55 Hz and the voltage went down to 105 before the 60amp breaker tripped. I doubt that it was really producing 10,000, that's just the total watts from the data plates on the space heaters and hair dryers I used for testing.

That's about it. Any questions I can answer, just let me know.
Dave C. aka Listerboy (had to choose a name for log-in and that sounded appropriate)

[SteveU.]

Thanks for the feedback Dave.

The ImperialDiesel site was one I've never seen and was interesting. You have a quality generator head in you Mecc-Alte, about $2500 USD new.  I've been pricing Stamfords, Marathons and Mecc-Altas versus STs. Sigh.  And direct driven, you will never have any drive belt problems unlike us CS flywheel people. Double sigh.

On the wizard thread the new member was asking what if a vertical twin Lister CS had a special crank made up to allow both (now special aluminum) pistons to go up and down at the same time to allow evenly spaced( one every 360 degrees) firing impulses and then ChangFa style counter weighted shafts were added to the crankcase to balance out the piston movement. I'd more or less said dream on, there ain't no such animal. I'd hoped with the German design yours would prove me wrong. That should have resulted in a fairly smooth firng/running engine.
I,m guessing yours becouse of the apparent viberation and the crankcase pressure pulses(like a single cylinder) has the 360 even firing crank but no counter rotating shafts.
Not a problem. What you don't have (counter shafts)  won't wear out and break. And not needing the big external flywheels like a CS; less weight and danger too.

If your interested here is a site with a rough do-it-yourself oil anylisis guide to use with  bypass filters:
www.fluidynenz.250x.com      It's under the heading Producer Gas Engine Oil and Soot. There is an attachment describing the Blotter Spot and Crackle Tests. Makes sense to me.

Enjoy.
SteveU.

[listerboy]

Thanks for the link SteveU,

The Imperial engine has one piston up and one down with each revolution and just the normal counterweights you see on most engines. But interestingly it replaced an 1800rpm 2cyl gasoline Onan that had the other arrangement you described. Both pistons travel up and down at the same time and the crank has massive counterweights cast right into it. It vibrated about the same as the Imperial but that's not the reason I replaced it. The electrical control was way too complicated with printed circuit boards, voltage regulators, a huge capacitor to filter the AC, relays and switches all over the place. I replaced the control board once to the tune of $200 so I figured it was time to get something less complicated. And besides, I like the smell of diesel much better than gasoline. Safer too now that I'm storing 55 gal of oil instead of gas.

Dave

[SHIPCHIEF]

That's why I was asking (in the pettreroid section) if anyone has seen a TOPLAND Petteroid 3 Cylinder. They would certainly have a 120 degree three throw crank, and would be much smoother.
However, the 1500 RPM rating is not going to work for those of us in 60 cycleland, so belt drive or a step-up gear would be required.
Scott E

[SteveU.]

You are welcome Dave C.
I,ve timed changed out hundreds of gallons of oil in other peoples diesels. On my own diesels I wanted some type of  real world contamination determination.
So you have experienced Both vertical two cylinder crankshaft arraingements. This matches my experiences too. It works but is never smooth. Thats OK. I do have a 3 cylinder Yammar diesel in the tractor. I could have just PTO driven a GEN head at the cost of tying up the tractor and 50-60% higher fuel  useage. But I sure didn't want to run dirty wood gas through my prime mover.

Scott E. the 3 cylinder Yammar is the 2nd 3 cylinder I've had a  teardown look into. The others were Geo/Metro Suzuki manufactered gas engines. Yes, they all had 120 degree split phase crankshafts. Smoother, but still not as smooth as a 4 cylinder. And none of mine would run when any one of the cylinders was not power cotributing.
I too wonder if the Indians are going to be able to forge and machine a true multiplane crankshaft.
CMD says they now have TOPLAND 3cylinder CSs' now available too.

SteveU. 

 

[Wizard]

Excellent talk at last. 

2 cyl 360 crank engine, any have the balace shafts yet?

3 cyl engines still needs balance shaft, it only needs one.

Changfa did have balance shafts but I'll dwell on this more later.

There are 3 balance issues to deal with:

Static balance (that's the drillings in the wheels and counter weights etc, matching the weights of multiple rods & pistons).

Dynamic balance it changes with rpm and ingition firings.  Which is the reason some counter weights is applied bit off center fron where throw is.

2nd order balance (vibrations due to pistons thumping back and forth at each end of stroke and yanked back.).  Most noticeable with 3 cylinders and up.  Balance shafts helps with this.

Naturally self-balanced:  inline 6, 12 with 120 degree cranks, flat opposed engine using flat 180 degree cranks (in twos of cylinders, even 20 cylinders).

Okay, back to this at hand, changfa (I'm not knocking on these, but many videos I seen of these running, I see them rattling and shaking things rather violently.   Wasn't that from ingition impulses?  Does the 1 cylinder vertical Lister really "thump" the ground with the ingition event or is it the massive piston slamming down and up (2x the 360 degrees rotation)?

I do maintain my vehicles with 4 cylinder engine and learned about the engine smoothness issues but not under 2,000 rpm situations.
My caravan (chrysler) 2.2L is very large and still is smooth but the long stroke 2.5L (same block basically) needed twin balance shafts counter spinning TWICE the crank rpm.  This is caused by 2nd order vibration because both 1 and 2 piston are at different speeds while both 3 & 4 are also at different matching speeds that made engine to jiggle vertically up and down 2x the crank spin.

I'm curious.

PS: excellent document on engine smoothness link:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth1.htm


Cheers, Wizard

[mobile_bob]

the changa 195 with its twin balance shafts runs pretty smooth if mounted correctly,
at least from 1000-1800rpm.

and it don't require a ton of concrete either

bob g

[t19]

Just a 1/4 ton

[mobile_bob]

actually no concrete at all,
for that matter i have one running sitting on two steel sawhorses and one jack stand
without even being bolted down.

course it is "RESILIENTLY" mounted!!

hahahaaa



bob g