Author Topic: cs 6/1 gen size  (Read 19627 times)

needenginerunnin

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 08:35:08 PM »
quote
In the case of a listeroid yes, as the large spinning flywheel mass can get larger loads started, so having a larger reserve capacity is a good thing within reason.  That is probably why I would say that the majority of 6/1 users opt for the ST-5 generator head.  There are ST-3 and I believe ST-3.5's out there, and these are a good match for the 6/1, but I think more people opt for the 5KW gen head.   Regardless of generator attached, the 6/1 is only going to handle a little over 3KW as a sustained load.  The ST-5 rated at 5KW continous is approaching 2 times that already.  I don't think I have ever seen a published surge rateing for a ST-5, but looking at the wiring compared to other generators I have peeked inside, it appears reasonably stout, so I would take a guess at a 7-7.5KW surge capacity. 




as far as known overload of st gen head is 5%, correct me if i am wrong
1949 6/1 electric smooth flywheels & ST 7.5, som base x3, cast indoor silencer X2.
1950's 6/1 som x2, spoked 6/1, LD1 som.
listerpetter LV2, PH1,LD1,SR1, PAZ1, AA1, LT1, AC1. 3.5hp yan clone.
politician's are like nappies, they need changing for the same reason.
take the pi$$ , full of sh#t.

ronmar

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 04:23:07 AM »
as far as known overload of st gen head is 5%, correct me if i am wrong

If you go to someplace like homedepot.com and search "generator", you can view the published specs on a number of generators.  If you do this, you will find that most box store generators typically have a 25-50% published surge/start capacity.  The lowest I have seen is perhaps 10% on one of these production generators, so 5% for a ST sounds awfully low. 

I have had occasion to play around with quite a few different generators over the years, and from what I have seen, my ST-5 is at least as stout in the wiring department as any of the portable and jobsite gens I have looked into.  It may not be as high as my instincts and experience lead me to believe it is, but I am fairly confident it is not as low as 5%.  Again, My gut could be wrong, but I have never seen a published surge capacity for a ST to confirm or deny my suspicions...     
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

oliver90owner

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 07:49:18 AM »
This issue may have come about from years gone by. 

Nearly all sets were limited by engine power.  The simple solution was to supply a bigger generator so engine would sulk at over-load rather than burning the generator windings , while a big engine on a smaller generator would just bark and keep driving the genny until the winding insulation melted - expensive failure.
 
These days with the modern circuit breakers (fuses at overload would not necessarily melt before the windings overheated), that is a scenario easily avoided. 

However you may well trip the circuit breakers at the least overload and wouldn't hope to  start large electric motor loads.  So you are stuck between a rock and a hard place!

You will utilise that energy in the flywheels only as they slow down.  If they slow down too much, frequency will suffer likewise, volts will suffer, depending on excitation, so it can only be a transient overload or the motor will not start.  Yes there is plenty of momentum in the flywheels, but that was primarily designed in for speed stability, not for overload conditions.

I would think it would depend a lot on starting load on the motor and type of motor.  I would never want to go near the point where starting might be a problem as something will get burned at some time unless all the modern trip safegaurds are employed. 

A better way might be a transient increase in  engine speed just before the load contacted.  I have had to do this, in the past, to get a freezer to start with a very small generator.  !0% should be more than enough or you would be needing a bigger set altogether.

A better way is to actually look at the odd item that you may have difficulty starting and substitute a better alternative for that.  Modern well pumps are much(?) more efficient than ancient ones, I presume.

Always better to cure the disease rather than the symptoms, in my view.

Regards, RAB

cujet

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 02:45:15 AM »
Remember those flywheels are huge for a reason. The actually contain little energy at such a slow RPM. A large surge load will bring down a listeroid in a hurry. It has been a while since I have done the math, but the inertia in a 6-1's flywheels is not orders of magnitude more than a quality Yamaha running at 3600RPM. Certainly, commercial gensets have full sized flywheels that provide similar levels of energy.

So, your thought of a 7.5 for surge loads is not valid at 650RPM. A 7.5KW load will reduce the speed of a 6-1 in milliseconds. Don't believe it? How come "flicker" is a problem with both single and twin listeroids? The combustion event accelerates the engine/generator combo and the voltage climbs. Depending on RPM, this happens between (roughly) 11 to 17 times per second. Now, if the combustion event accelerates the engine, something is dragging the speed back down rather quickly. You guessed it. compression and load.

Bring the RPM up to 1000 with those heavy flywheels and the situation gets a bit better.
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Doug

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 05:31:58 AM »
Are we still debating this?
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MacGyver

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »
Can someone tell me what the rated excitation voltage and current is on an ST 5?

The nameplate on my ST 7.5 claims 61V and 2.7A

I'd like to know what it is for the ST 5
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

ronmar

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2008, 12:36:37 AM »
Can someone tell me what the rated excitation voltage and current is on an ST 5?

The nameplate on my ST 7.5 claims 61V and 2.7A

I'd like to know what it is for the ST 5
The plate on my PS ST-5 says 49V and 2.6A
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

oliver90owner

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2008, 08:04:21 AM »
Just a thought.....

The nameplate on my ST 7.5 claims 61V and 2.7A
The plate on my PS ST-5 says 49V and 2.6A


Now I know it will not be a constant, or even linear, loss but that looks like, in simple terms, a loss of about 1%, maybe more, for driving the excitation on a bigger generator rather than sizing it properly? 

All these losses keep adding up.......we may not know exactly but it might help if someone actually measured their excitation power at a given resistive output load and compared a 7.5 head with a 3.0 head?

Probably of litle interest for a stand-by set-up, but would benefit those eeking out their fuel in an off-grid installation

Regards, RAB

MacGyver

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 05:41:29 PM »
The plate on my PS ST-5 says 49V and 2.6A

Thanks Ron!
Now I need a volunteer to takes some voltage and current measurements on a running unit.  :D
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

MacGyver

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2008, 06:12:00 PM »
Just a thought.....

The nameplate on my ST 7.5 claims 61V and 2.7A
The plate on my PS ST-5 says 49V and 2.6A


Now I know it will not be a constant, or even linear, loss but that looks like, in simple terms, a loss of about 1%, maybe more, for driving the excitation on a bigger generator rather than sizing it properly? 

All these losses keep adding up.......we may not know exactly but it might help if someone actually measured their excitation power at a given resistive output load and compared a 7.5 head with a 3.0 head?

Probably of litle interest for a stand-by set-up, but would benefit those eeking out their fuel in an off-grid installation

Regards, RAB

That's what I'd like to find out... how much (if anything) more does it cost to run a ST 7.5 vs ST 5.

The excitation power goes up with output power, and it's quite possible that and ST 7.5 doesn't use any more excitation power than a ST5 for any given load. (that's less than 5KW)

I will measure the excitation current and voltage on my 7.5 with some constant loads. (like 3KW, 2KW, 1KW and no load) and perhaps someone can do the same with an ST5 so we can do a real comparison?

Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

ronmar

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »
I took those measurements at one time.  I will have to look back thru my notes and see if I wrote them down.

Ron
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

MacGyver

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2008, 04:20:04 AM »
OK, I got a few minutes today to run the 'roid and poke at it with a meter.
Here's what the rotor draws on my  ST7.5 in stock configuration, and with a capacitor and resistor inserted in the field circuit..

With the capacitor and resistor gives better waveform on the output, and about 10 volts higher output.

"Stock" setup ( no capacitor on field):
      No Load: = 38.4V @1.6A
      2200W: = 42.6V @ 1.77
      3200W: = 44.1V @ 1.92A

With 220uF capacitor across output of bridge rectifier and 2 ohm resistor in series with field:
     No Load = 56V @ 2.2A
      2200W = 60.0V @ 2.41A
      3200W = 62.0 @ 2.53A
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

needenginerunnin

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 08:36:15 PM »
evening all

i am just about to order my st gen head this month, and i am still unable to decide which size to get 5 or 7.5kw unit to go with my 6/1!
after reading lots of different opinions, i cant see that there is alot difference between the 2 sizes apart from more copper '10kg' , the gen will not get too many hours per year.
 i am considering the 7.5, future proofing my self if you like. st3's where the norm to start with in the early days now most run st5's
last chance for anybody's 10 pen earth, any wise words left.
i see some of you out there are running 7.5 st on your 6/1's, has anybody had the luxury of tryin both sizes?

 cheers needenginerunnin
1949 6/1 electric smooth flywheels & ST 7.5, som base x3, cast indoor silencer X2.
1950's 6/1 som x2, spoked 6/1, LD1 som.
listerpetter LV2, PH1,LD1,SR1, PAZ1, AA1, LT1, AC1. 3.5hp yan clone.
politician's are like nappies, they need changing for the same reason.
take the pi$$ , full of sh#t.

sailawayrb

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Re: cs 6/1 gen size
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 09:20:21 PM »
IMO, both will work fine, and both are significantly more than you need for mating with a 6/1.  If you think there will be more HP in your future or the additional acquisition cost isn't a significant consideration for you, getting the 7.5 might make sense.