Possibility of converting GM90 DI to Stanard type

[Spark_Chaser]

At the risk of incurring criticism....& Only for my own curiosity / entertainment.

I have a GM90 (direct injection), it was one of Mike M's 2004 batch.

Been looking at the listeroid parts for sale, heads, valves, gaskets, injectors, and more.
The standard lister clone has an indirect injection head. 
Noticing that most of the listeroids appear to be very much alike, if not built from many of the same components, I have wondered if it would be possible to convert my GM90 to a std listeroid.

Ok I know that the DI / aluminum piston / 750rpm GM90 is supposed to be more efficient and possibly cleaner emission wise as it is.  I'd hang on to the DI stuff to be able to change it back.

Obviously I need a complete std head with the injector and gaskets.  Possibly a different piston and cylinder too. Push rods maybe?


What do you all think?

[Tom]

What are you trying to accomplish by switching?

[Spark_Chaser]

Tom,

Why go to the trouble?

I am having trouble stating a good reason other than my own education / entertainment / curiosity. 

After 18 months at an office job (career change) I find tinkering on the evenings and weekends relaxing. 
Instead of giving all my mechanical skills and energy to an employer I get to use them on my own stuff.

So in no particular order…

General curiosity:
Just how different are the varients?  I know the GM90 has a different head and piston, how about the injector, valve gear, and cylinder?  I’m guessing that most of the differences are up top.

Sound:
The std lister types have a nice Pa Chookita sound that the GM90 doesn’t have.

Future serviceability: 
I feel the std type parts will be around for atleast another 15 to 30 years.  Will I be able to get a replacement DI injector or head 10 or 20 years from now?  Finding out what interchanges now or not may push me to procure a few spares now.

Community Knowledge:
I’m sure someone else on this forum will find the information useful, interesting, or at the least get a good laugh.

Doug

[Tom]

Good enough. One stumbling block might be when changing from an aluminum piston which I believe the GM 90 has to a much heavier cast iron piston from a Listeroid you are probably going to have major balancing issues.

[Doug]

I Don't think its wise to try and make the GM 90 into something it never was.......

[Quinnf]

You'd be better off just buying a 'roid while they're still available.  The GM90 isn't a bad engine, but by the time you get all the bits and pieces together to make it into a 'roid, you'd be better off spending a little more and having a complete second engine.  I have two 6/1s, and the way things are going, I figure when the Revolution comes and the world looks like something out of a Mad Max movie, having a second engine around might not be a bad thing.

Quinn

[Spark_Chaser]

Balancing issues... yup I over looked that one. 
Thanks Tom.

This is the reason I posted here first before starting, might get the piece of info that says way too much trouble or expense.

A second engine would not please the chief accountant...
As for spare parts I suppose it would be more economical to buy one of those complete replacement short blocks with a complete spare head etc.  Have 100% replacement parts on hand just in case.

Quinn I hope things don't get as bad as the mad max scene, though I admit its possible.  Even with an efficient lister one would have to stock up, hide, and protect quite a bit of fuel, oil, and not to mention food.  Not sure I want to play in a mad max world.

I have several end of civilization end of the world books in my fiction / scifi collection. 
On the Beach has always been a favorite. 

[lowspeedlife]

Don't forget bullets, Max was usually short on those.
                    scott r.

[Stan]

Sparky....Nothin a 'roid could do to help you if the conditions in "On the Beach" happened. 
Stan

[blacksea7]

You can't go from an IDI to a DI engine without a substantial amount of engineering. For what it's worth, an IDI is a less efficient engine however an IDI can burn a lesser quality of fuel than a DI. The reason being, an IDI burns at a slower rate thereby allowing the heavies within the fuel to ignite creating a longer burn, augmenting cylinder pressure which in turn produces mechanical energy.

If you use a pintle nozzle, the piston, providing there's enough material can be machined accordingly however you'll need to rivet a steel swirl chamber upon the top of the piston (kind of a neat little washer with a hole in it then curled). If you use a multi hole nozzle, machine work becomes a very technical issue of which can be done... problem will be finding a proper nozzle to do the job.

As for the balancing issues, the crank can be machined and balanced to operate with an aluminum piston. Another option would be to have an aluminum piston machined to weigh with the iron piston it replaces (in round numbers, 3 times the mass in aluminum to equal the weight of iron). One issue might arise... ring lands... iron has a far better working strength and greater durability than aluminum however you can overcome this by making a two piece piston... the top of steel or iron and the skirt of aluminum... not uncommon.

Originally Lister pistons actually had a cast iron insert held in place with the aluminum poured around it in the mold... later, other than those used in turbocharged engines, the iron insert was eventually omitted. What the iron did do for all the engines is offer a greater degree of durability to those who loved to start the engine on ether... BAD BAD idea... There are a myriad of other ways to start these engines well below zero without the adverse effects to the internal working parts. If I had a dollar for every engine I saw destroyed with ether, I'd be... yeah!

Anything is possible but I strongly suggest you leave it as you purchased it... Lister's engineering, if it were followed in the clones, is as tough as it gets...

[jzeeff]

As a general statement, burning faster is more efficient.   But too fast is bad for the engine.

What harm does ether do and why doesn't it occur on the automatic ether injection systems that CAT sells on their expensive engines?

[Doug]

The point of the thread was can  GM 90 be turned into a True CS clone.

No they are different Animals.

Blacksea7 I think you would do well to look over the details on the GM 90 and other DI indian slow speed diesels before you pass judgment on them.
The CS was for its day a good engine the Indian DI engines are an attempt to improve on the CS and In many ways they are onto something.

You must admit there is lot of potential in a 20/1 with presure lubed connecting rod big end and good Trbs ( I have issue with the TRB but I am a minorty ).

There is a lot in the GM 90 lifted directly from the Petter AV1 series 2 if you look realy close

[blacksea7]

Doug,

My, settle down! I am one of the left overs from the orignial Lister then HSDE corporationis of England. In the sixties we had a substantial number of issues with all the Indian manufactured engines... their marketing was... well... innovative. They went so far as to sell internal items stating they were equal or better to Lister... a lie.
As for the internal issues, there is no corporation on the planet to rival Lister's technology and Engineering... at best any clone can do is copy it using inferior materials. As for the DI/IDI issues, leave it to the people who engineered them for a living... The concepts of the two have been hotly debated and to this day, the IDI loses hands down... even as a slow speed engine... The largest engines used in ships (manufactured by Hyundai of which manufactures 3 out of every five cargo ships on the seas as well as being the largest manufacturer of horsepower on the planet) uses a DI two stroke at a whopping 61 RPM. Do not underestimate this firm.
While finding favor in specific applications (Kubota, for one... Perkins for another, Yanmar, etc.) variants of the Ricardo MK-V precombustion chamber (no doubt the most prolific IDI ever built) will be around for years to come... the reason being: The engineering is already done, cheap to puchase the engineering as it's antiquated and it's easy to manufacture.
As for India's manufacturing, your threads speak for themselves... if these were Listers remanufactured, 99% of these issues wouldn't exist. Those of us who were employed as engineers and worked with and around countless thousands of these engines know their worth. I hold nothing against anyone who loves to tinker.. i believe it to be grand but the truth is and will remain... Sir Richard Lister owned the firm responsible for building the most robust, the toughest and most durable engines on the planet.
I did look at India's engines... strangely, nothing has changed since the sixties... nothing!
If you're after durability, head for Lancaster PA and talk the farmers out of one of their 6/1's or 12/2's, go through it and let it run... then tell me crow about your Indian Clones.

[Doug]

Did I come across wrong here?

All I stated is a GM 90 is not a CS lister they look a like but are completely different machines.
I never said the GM 90 was as good or supirior I just stated it was an "attempt" to build a better more modern machine. I wish they made a 20/1 to Lister Standards But I guess the word better might not be the right one to use eh?

On the Subject of Indian engine companies I don't think its fair to compare all they same way.

I have seen the KOEL HA series and its a very good clone of the Duetz   FLW*912 engines. Good enough I'd call it a beach head product that is selling
I have no interest in buying or selling engines, but I do think they ( the Indians not so much the Rajkot roid builders ) may have chance to male a mark on this world.

[vegomatic]

I have a GM90 from Mike M. And so far the roller tappet from a metro fits, as does the water pump, but everything else that I have tried,(rocker arms . valve lifters, push rods, bushings, head gaskets, etc. are all too big. The GM 90 is a baby in its own world of roidom. After burning 1000gals of veg oil thru her I can say that she does a good job of it. Better leave her alone and and let her do her job.