Author Topic: How do I check if things are square or out of line?  (Read 6149 times)

mkdutchman

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How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« on: July 10, 2008, 07:50:34 PM »
Some days ago I dissasembled the 6/1 we have here at the shop, as it was getting hard to start, losing power, etc. It had some coking, leaky valves and so on........

I removed all the gaskets from under the block to raise the CR because it's run under speed a lot and tends to smoke a bit. When I checked the bump clearance I noticed there was a difference of .009 from one side to the other....not good. I thought about it a bit and finally put it back together, (STUPID) trying not to think about it coming back and biting me in the rear. (Even more dumb) It worked beautifully, till this morning I heard a soft "clicking" in time with the power stroke, that had no business being there.....

I took it apart again and saw that the sides of the big end bearing shells are wearing down fast, and I figure that's what was causing the clicking, as the big end jumped from one side to the other of the crank pin. It's just a little bit of play, but way too much for a week's worth of running time.....

Is there a simple way of measuring the deck to see if it's square in relation to the crankpin? and the same way with the cylinder block in relation to the inside of the liner? I suppose I could put the half gaskets in again but that's such a halfa**ed solution, I'd rather machine/scrape the deck and/or block and fix the problem permanently. Do any of you have a way of pinpointing where it needs to be machined? I searched this site, plus George's cd, plus utterpower and couldn't find a method to do that.......

Stan

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 08:47:54 PM »
Use 2 (or more) small lead pellets to decide which side is "low" and by how much (.009?) Then shim that side up .009 using half gaskets, re-assemble, re torque and check bump clearance again until its even.  Sounds the simplest to me!  Messing about with machining the head is way too complex and fraught with danger.  :(  KISS  ;D
Stan

mkdutchman

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 09:06:37 PM »
Use 2 (or more) small lead pellets to decide which side is "low" and by how much (.009?) Then shim that side up .009 using half gaskets, re-assemble, re torque and check bump clearance again until its even.  Sounds the simplest to me!  Messing about with machining the head is way too complex and fraught with danger.  :(  KISS  ;D
Stan

Yes, I already did that. That's what tipped me off that the piston is out of alignment in relation to the bore. Now, to proceed, I need to find out if the bottom of the block is uneven or the engine deck is uneven or possibly both.........thought about the gaskets, but I don't like it, it's too much of a temporary solution. I do have the capability to machine the surfaces properly once I know where and how much

ronmar

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 11:19:34 PM »
First off, half gaskets are an age old accepted means of final alignment.  With machine tolerances improving over the decades, they have fallen out of general use, but they used to be done quite frequently. With the ammount of misalignment you mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if your piston was touching the liner at the top or bottom of the stroke.  This side loading is what is causing the excessive side bearing wear on the big end.

What is probably happening is that the side holes where the TRB carriers set are not even with the deck.  This makes the crankshaft not perpendicular with the bore and results in the piston-bore misalignment.  probably the easiest way to determine what is what is by using a precision machinists bubble level.  I used a 6" model made by Starrett that pointed me right at the issue.  But if you don't have access to one, they are a little spendy.  Another way can be done with a $7 1" dial indicator from Harbor Freight and some scrap metal and a large straight edge.  Both methods involve removing the cylinder/piston from the block.  With the level, you shim the block in it's mounts till the edge of a bubble is against one of the indicator marks on the bubble vial with the level setting on top of the block(deck).  Then you set the level down on the crank and compare the readings.  You need to do this at several points of crank rotation, and is best done with the flywheels removed.  Ideally, the crank should be level with the deck.  This type bubble is also precise enough to tell you if the crank is bent as the readings will change as the crank to rotated if the crank isn't true.

The dial indicator method is similar in that you use these tools to compare crank to deck.  Place the straight edge across the deck, and using a piece of scrap clamped to the attach point on the dial indicator to put the top of the crankshaft within the 1" range of the dial indicator when measuring straight down from the straight edge placed across the deck. Again, this is easier if the flywheels are removed. It dosn't even require a perfectly straight edge, if you turn the whole rig around to measure the other side using the same points on the straight edge.  Again, proper alignment should yield you the same measurement from the bottom of the straight edge held across the deck, to the top of the crank.  You can also use this method to tell how true the crank is by comparing readings taken as the crank is rotated.  If you get a difference from left to right, then the deck is not aligned with the crank.  If you do not note any mis-alignment in the crank to deck measurements, then the problem lies in the piston/rod, or the cylinder-liner relationships. 

You can also pull the crank out and measure this same way as you did the crank using the dial indicator, from the deck straight edge to the bottom of the TRB holes in the side of the case. This will show differences in the TRB carriers if any.  This is where my misalignment on my block was.  The hole in the block on the non-starting side was about .015" lower than the starting side measured up to the deck.  How I fixed mine was to take the TRB carrier on the low side and chuck it in a lathe.  I then offset it in the lathe and took about .015' off the top half of it's circumference, of the portion that fits into the hole in the case.  This allowed that TRB carrier to be slid up as much as .015" when in the hole.  I re-assembled the engine and on the bottom edge of the case hole, I inserted old feeler gauge blades and gradually shimmed up that side untill my differential squish was equal on both sides.  I wound up with a .013" feeler gauge shim under the TRB housing to achieve equal squish. I tack welded this shim in place.

Why did I do this, well because my engine had never been run, I had the time and tools available, and most days I am a nit picky SOB...  In the measuring process, I also noticed some tooth mis-alignment/uneven wear when I checked the idler gear mesh, and this adjustment helped center/even out the measured wear patern.  My short block was delivered with a half gasket under the starter side of he cylinder that yielded less than a .001 difference in squish across the piston, and I am sure that it would have happilly ran that way also...  The decision is up to you as to which approach suits your needs and wants the best.

Good luck.           
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MacGyver

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 11:37:36 PM »
You can also pull the crank out and measure this same way as you did the crank using the dial indicator, from the deck straight edge to the bottom of the TRB holes in the side of the case. This will show differences in the TRB carriers if any.  This is where my misalignment on my block was.

Yep. That's what was wrong with mine too. One TRB hole was lower than the other.

Around here a machine shop won't even talk to you for less than $100, and if you actually want them to do something it starts at double that.
I shimmed it back up with 1/2 gaskets, smiled, and said "good enough for India".

I had to fix a metric shitload of stuff on my 6/1, but some stuff I just had to shudder and leave as is because I don't have an infinite supply of time and money.  (Which is what it would have taken to make everything "right".)
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

blacksea7

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 12:19:14 AM »
Hi all,

I just read this thread and I'm bewildered... from the thrust side to the free side of the piston, you measured .009? Here's my problem with it. As an one cylinder engine, hosting a very long trunk piston in a long barrel, regardless how you slice it, the piston is constant with the bore, not the machined case. This is a one cylinder engine of which, regardless how you cut it, is one of the simpliest engines on the planet to machine to tolerance. Would someone please do me a favour and take a picture or two of this issue and send them to me? Something here doesn't add up.

Bill

mkdutchman

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 01:39:35 PM »
Hi all,

I just read this thread and I'm bewildered... from the thrust side to the free side of the piston, you measured .009? Here's my problem with it. As an one cylinder engine, hosting a very long trunk piston in a long barrel, regardless how you slice it, the piston is constant with the bore, not the machined case. This is a one cylinder engine of which, regardless how you cut it, is one of the simpliest engines on the planet to machine to tolerance. Would someone please do me a favour and take a picture or two of this issue and send them to me? Something here doesn't add up.

Bill
........and I think I found out what doesn't add up. My bump clearance was very high to begin with so I removed all the base gaskets. When I took the block off the second time, I found a nice thick gob of paint on one side of the block. once that was cleared out things lined up to within .001, also I ended up taking stan's advice and evening it out using gaskets

ronmar

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 09:25:34 PM »
Hi all,

I just read this thread and I'm bewildered... from the thrust side to the free side of the piston, you measured .009? Here's my problem with it. As an one cylinder engine, hosting a very long trunk piston in a long barrel, regardless how you slice it, the piston is constant with the bore, not the machined case. This is a one cylinder engine of which, regardless how you cut it, is one of the simpliest engines on the planet to machine to tolerance. Would someone please do me a favour and take a picture or two of this issue and send them to me? Something here doesn't add up.

Bill

The piston is not constant with the bore.  The piston floats in the bore, held in place by the rings which act like spring centering devices.  In one axis the piston is constant with the con rod(parallel to crank). In the other axis it is free to pivot on the piston wrist pin and is solely centered by the ring forces.  In the same axis that the piston is constant to the con rod, the con rod is constant with the crankshaft.  If you lower one end of the crankshaft, say 3 degrees, you will apply this same 3 degree tilt to the piston and conrod.  Since the head and cylinder/liner are referenced to the engine block, this 3 degree tilt would be shown as a difference in squish measured across the piston top between the head.  If the tilt is bad enough, the piston will use up all the ring travel and begin to contact the cylinder walls directly.

It may be the simplest engine to machine to tollerance on the planet, but the indians managed to screw up the crankshaft tapered roller bearing mount points on mine by about .015" in the vertical.  They compensated for this by folding a thin cylinder base gasket in half and put it under the cylinder base over the higher side of the crankshaft to apply this same tilt to the cylinder/liner and head.  This half gasket puts the cylinder/liner perpendicular to the crank where it belongs and leads to even squish across the piston above the wrist pin(as it should be).  Some use this half gasket for alignment, I chose to raise the low end of the crank till the crank ran perpendicular with the cylinder and no half gasket was necessary(as it REALLY should be).   

Ron   
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jzeeff

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 01:18:47 AM »

This sounds crazy, but maybe they should just use a ball joint to connect the piston to the rod.  Then it floats in both directions.  The piston could also rotate, which might make it wear more evenly.    Or maybe it would just mean that you could never get a good seal.






ronmar

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Re: How do I check if things are square or out of line?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 05:24:32 AM »
It would do that, and the little Cox .049 model airplane and car engines do exactly that.  The conrod is joined to the piston with a ball joint.  Unfortunatly A ball joint might have issues with spreading out the forces adequately, and would most likley also require pressure lubrication.  Since it would also allow no lateral movement, it would require that the big end be able to slide on the crank/rod journal, or the crank would have to be very precisely placed in the case under the cylinder.  In the case of the listeroid, as it is now, the rod small end can slide back and forth a little.  This makes crank placement in the case less critical in this regard, allowing you to properly place the crank gear in relation to the idler gear and allow the crank throw to clear the idler pinion.
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