Author Topic: Thermo electric generators  (Read 7384 times)

Doug

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Thermo electric generators
« on: July 04, 2008, 05:52:48 PM »
Oh a man can dream of a multy fuel or heat recovery systemn that produces low voltage electricity.

And maybe the dream is close at hand.

http://keelynet.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/new-highly-efficient-thermoelectric-generator-invention/
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mike90045

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 06:41:29 PM »
AFIK, thermoelectric generators outputs are usually measured in micro-watts.  The USFS used to use some that ran off a propane tank for a month, from a small pilot light.  It only generated a couple of watts to trickle charge an emergency radio battery.  Solar PV is much more affordable now, 20W panels only $100

Doug

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 09:12:41 PM »
I was looking at a Hurican lantern made in the Soviet union in the 1960s that had one built in.
They used them for running a radio, very clever if you ask me......

I wish Coleman made one as a retrofit to the ventilator.

Bigger say 500 watts for exaust heat rocvery would sure be nice?
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Tom

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 05:00:19 AM »
I have one of them. Mine is an older version of the 802

http://www.caframo.com/ecofans.htm
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Doug

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 04:17:22 PM »
Thats cool.

Look at this...
http://www.lampguild.org/QandApage/archives/Q0000233.htm

And there is a modern version made probably in Asia I saw built around a hurican lamp.

Just scale that up 1000 times and stick it on the exhaust of a stationary engine  ;D
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miwyl

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 05:52:10 PM »
Hey, The dream is at hand if you have the money that is.

Here is a technical article on a 1 kw generator running off truck exhaust

http://www.hi-z.com/papers/ICT%201994%20-%20Performance%20of%201%20kW%20TE%20Gen.pdf

The generator uses seventy-two of Hi-Z’s 13 Watt bismuth- telluride thermoelectric modules for energy conversion.

Here is the company that makes'em

http://www.hi-z.com/index.php

I am sure we will advances in size  and efficiency but probably not in price reduction.

miwyl
Jkson 6/1 voltmaster 5kw 3600rpm

jtodd

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 02:27:09 AM »
Hey, The dream is at hand if you have the money that is.

Here is a technical article on a 1 kw generator running off truck exhaust

http://www.hi-z.com/papers/ICT%201994%20-%20Performance%20of%201%20kW%20TE%20Gen.pdf

The generator uses seventy-two of Hi-Z’s 13 Watt bismuth- telluride thermoelectric modules for energy conversion.

Here is the company that makes'em

http://www.hi-z.com/index.php

I am sure we will advances in size  and efficiency but probably not in price reduction.

miwyl



I spoke with the people at Hi-Z a while ago.  The devices they sell are quite nice, but also quite expensive and it is difficult to get good efficiency out of them.  They have a "quantum well" version that is due out sometime in 2010 (according to them) which will increase efficiency fourfold in the same size package as the HZ-14 device they sell.  The hope is that the pricepoint will be better, too, but I suspect that is a function of the market and not a function of the costs of goods. 

The current HZ-14 I think is $125, plus hardware, plus heatsinks - I think I figured it out to be around $200 per HZ-14 unit, which is 13 watts maximum efficiency.  So, best case scenario is $15 a watt.  Considering things usually aren't best case, I'm betting on something like $22 a watt in my equations - ouch.   A 13hp Changfa 195 let's say is $800, plus an ST-10 at $500, plus $500 of components to complete - you're at $1800 for ~7kw, or $0.25 per watt with reasonable assurance of delivery.  So TEGs are about 88 times more expensive than a Changfa-style generator per watt.  Ouch.  Of course, the TEGs will run on any heat source you can feed them - Changfas will choke a bit on coal (though I will be trying a wood gasifier/pyrolisys configuration in the next year or two, which the Changfa WILL run on.)

If the costs could be cut by 75% for TEGs, and the efficiency quadrupled, these would start to be appealing.  But right now they're mostly interesting for the concept and not for the application - just too expensive and fiddly.  Even if cheaper, one would have to build a very custom exhaust system with high-precision machined surfaces to accept the TEGs so that heat transfer would be efficient.  Probably some sort of exhaust tube that was made of extruded titanium or highly resistant stainless on the inside with copper cladding to "funnel" the heat towards the TEGs.  They have to be easy to clean (soot _greatly_ reduces heat transfer) thus the internal surfaces need to be easily and agressively washed somehow, and you'd be hoping for as much surface area as possible so lots of convolutions to capture heat... and soot.

Then, you'd ideally need a source of cold water to put on the other side of the TEG.  Maybe a ground loop?  The greater the heat difference between the two sides, the more energy you get - Carnot's equations.  Then you need perhaps a series of TEGs, with larger, more efficient ones at the hottest point of the system to generate the real power, and then less efficient ones further up the line to power batteries or something.  Oh, and then you need DC-to-DC converters because all these different TEGs in the exhaust heat stream will be putting out different voltages and amperages and you'll need to normalize them into something usable.

So this all starts to look pretty complex.  Nice idea if it were really cheap, but it's not - telluride/bismuth ain't falling off trees.  I have some hopes for the quantum well variants, but that's some time in the future.

JT


oliver90owner

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 08:43:50 AM »
Looks more interesting for a solar concentator project, to me.....A half square metre of bright sunshine radiant energy should be about enough for the 13 Watters?  Process control might be more than 13W though!!  Economy in scale is the key.......I suppose

Regards, RAB

Doug

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 09:03:05 PM »
I just think it would be cool to replace the ventilator on one of my more powerful Colerman lanterns with a thermo electric and use the waste heat to say charge the power pack for th eboys DVD player with the power is out.

The Petteroid sleeps in a plastic bag next the ST5 in a plastic bag. A home for dust right now who would have thought it would tak so long to get anything finished lol..

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mkdutchman

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 09:58:42 PM »
I just think it would be cool to replace the ventilator on one of my more powerful Colerman lanterns with a thermo electric and use the waste heat to say charge the power pack for th eboys DVD player with the power is out.

The Petteroid sleeps in a plastic bag next the ST5 in a plastic bag. A home for dust right now who would have thought it would tak so long to get anything finished lol..


I was going to ask you sometime, where are you with the petteroid by now?

oliver90owner

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 11:38:46 PM »
Doug,

I just think it would be cool to replace the ventilator on one of my more powerful Colerman lanterns with a thermo electric and use the waste heat to say charge the power pack for th eboys DVD player with the power is out

Could use it to run a bright torch as well (then you wouldn't need the lantern.....doh!) ???

Regard, RAB

Doug

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Re: Thermo electric generators
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 04:10:24 AM »
True, but I think the DVD would go ever better with Jr.

Consider for a moment if the power is out and your generator is running at part or low load to run just a few lights then a Lantern would be a better use of fuel.

In winter its also heat.


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