Author Topic: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt  (Read 28281 times)

Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2006, 08:38:58 AM »
GWB and Co have a plan. That's at least a start, and a recognition that a problem exists.  The opposition had no plan and still does not.

GWB and Co's plan was to chase Bin Laden on the cheap while hustling into Iraq.  Obviously we missed Bin Laden, which was a spectacular blunder.  Iraq was the only secular nation in the area at the time we invaded.  How can you justify invading a secular nation in a war on Islamic jihad?  To Saddam Islam was a threat.  He was no religious zealot, just a power-hungry dictator.  Now it appears likely that Iraq will end up with some sort of Shiite government.  You call that a plan?  What plan did Bush have for winning the peace?  He thought he was done in 2003, Mission Accomplished.  He recently said that he expects to have significant troops through 2008, which means his plan is, do nothing and let the next guy clean up.

What on earth do you mean that the opposition doesn't realize that a problem exists?  Everybody does except fringe lunatics.

Mainstream media support is said to be worth 15% in a presidential election, and they all threw in with the big D like they always do.

The repubs control the congress and executive, conglomerates own more and more of the 'MSM', and you guys can't quit whinging about how you are disadvantaged.

Here's a quick torpedo on your paranoid fantasies about the MSM.  I must have heard two hundred outraged remarks in the MSM about Clinton 'not inhaling'.  Bush won't deny cocaine use, and how much did the MSM push him on that?  Bush apparently has a DUI arrest in 1976.  How much would we have heard about that if Clinton did it?  With Bush we don't even know for sure.  Clinton was involved in Whitewater, which Starr spent something like 30 million investigating without levelling charges, and again it was all over the air waves.  Bush sold insider Harkin stock right before catastrophic news, submitted the requisite SEC forms late and undated, and we heard hardly anything about that (he claims he was 'vetted', but the SEC under his dad declined to investigate).  The MSM happily reported that Kerry's involvement in Vietnam was 'dishonorable', when he volunteered to drive around in a PT boat while getting fired at.  Judith Miller works for the NY Times, and plugged the Iraq war as hard as anybody.  Bush wipes away the sins of his youth by saying he was reborn, but he doesn't go to church.  How much would we have heard about it Kerry or Gore or Clinton didn't go to church?

Kerry's record as a senator is devoid of any accomplishment.

Not true.  Among other things he doggedly pursued the Arab money laundering BCCI scheme.

Gore won the popular, but lost the electoral. Now he behaves in public like a certifiable lunatic. He has no plan, just a warped form of Big Tent Religion based on Junk Science, while he traverses the world spewing hydrocarbons from an old Boeing 707, telling you to do without. He did even poorer in School, in the sevice, and after than GWB. I don't see anything good comming from a Gore presidency.

There is an broad consensus among the scientific community that global warming is real.  There are a couple of high profile dissenters, one who was commissioned by Exxon and another who is a geologist from an Autralian college.  Anyway, isn't it imprudent to assume that human activity is not to blame?  Again this is paranoia, you think there is a group of people who dislike capitalism or whatever, so they use environmental degradation as a ruse.

War costs and war dead are the lowest in recorded history. If anyone can pull this off, it's us, and the world community that stands with. We have to keep at it to ever get a good result. Bugging out of Viet Nam resulted in a pogrom that killed at least 3 million people. Leaving like that was irresponsible, and the 'leaders' in media and politics that advocated it are criminals in my book.

Your remark about war costs is all wet.  See http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm.  Anyway, like I said Bush thought he was done in 2003, and now doesn't see a win anytime on the horizon.  Sure cutting a running sucks, but it's far from clear what victory means at this point.

Yeah it's unfortunate how the domino theory was exonerated, and one country after another fell under communist dominion after we pulled out of 'Nam.

Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2006, 09:13:06 AM »
The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said. Put up or shut up.

I would love to get into this but…I leave very shortly and will not be back until the end of the month…believe me this is not an out…

Well, that's sort of what it seems to be.  You said my post sounded idiotic and goofballish, yet you have time to make a reply and edit it but no time to provide a mite of evidence.

we can start with Bush is a" poor serviceman" if you like...

I'll set the stage.  During wartime the people of the US spend one million dollars training a Guardsman fighter pilot.  Initially he gets glowing reviews.  Something changes though and this pilot skips a physical, which is significant for fighter pilots, and never flies again.  He transfer to a mail facility in Alabama, where no one acknowledges seeing him, and if memory serves leaves that early to start HBS.

you do realize this is not a level playing field we are on

I do not.

Also, this should get moved to another forum, as it is OT here.

Don't get cold feet.

Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2006, 10:01:58 AM »
The repubs control the congress and executive, conglomerates own more and more of the 'MSM', and you guys can't quit whinging about how you are disadvantaged.

I forgot my particular favorite.  Imagine the field day the MSM would have had if Gore or Kerry had been a cheerleader.  Probably lots of people don't even know that Bush was at Yale.

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2006, 05:03:30 PM »
"The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world" - Winston Churchill on Islam, 1899

The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling. Testimony at Saddam's trial and translation of Iraqi state documents expose the involvement in Iraqi terror. Just like "Oil for Food" violated the cease fire treaty, and involved greedy politicians from the 'world community', the recent release of documents shows a trail of WMD purchases that lead to.....our trusted trading partners in Europe and Russia. These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed. The most UNREAL part of this, is that GWB is not running again. Go Figure: GWB must have transitioned from a 'person' to an 'idea' or there would be no reason to keep up this hateful personal attack against a supposed lame duck.
As a rallying cry to unite liberals against the war, it's probably a loser. There has been enough raw data about the inexorable and naked agression of Islam as a world dominating force that calling for a 'redeployment' and refusing to aknowledge this new Stateless Power is not a plan or policy that can win back control of the country.
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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2006, 05:45:57 PM »
"The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world" - Winston Churchill on Islam, 1899

The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling. Testimony at Saddam's trial and translation of Iraqi state documents expose the involvement in Iraqi terror. Just like "Oil for Food" violated the cease fire treaty, and involved greedy politicians from the 'world community', the recent release of documents shows a trail of WMD purchases that lead to.....our trusted trading partners in Europe and Russia. These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed. The most UNREAL part of this, is that GWB is not running again. Go Figure: GWB must have transitioned from a 'person' to an 'idea' or there would be no reason to keep up this hateful personal attack against a supposed lame duck.
As a rallying cry to unite liberals against the war, it's probably a loser. There has been enough raw data about the inexorable and naked agression of Islam as a world dominating force that calling for a 'redeployment' and refusing to aknowledge this new Stateless Power is not a plan or policy that can win back control of the country.

Bingo, and nicely put.  It is MUCH easier (if intellectually lazy and dishonest) to demonize the current admininstration than to acknowledge the real battle, and to come to grips with the facts -- that Islam is a force for evil in the world, and that those who are determined to proseletyze it with violence must be fought wherever they are. 
It's a hard jump to make from the liberal "we are all brothers" mantra  - unless the first step is to decide that Republicans are so evil they must not be our brothers. That is where the media whores have decided to focus.

The REAL enemy uses that in his favor.  So long as the US government is busy defending itself from those internal skirmishes, it can't focus on battling the global threat that waits to consume all of us.

Russell
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mobile_bob

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2006, 06:00:01 PM »
Amen, Russell


this is not a problem that is going to go away, quite the contrary it will be with us all for many years to come.
it is one thing to fight for land, fight to protect one freedom, or to fight to help free another people, but..
it is quite another to fight a religious war.

we as americans have to understand that, as a religious war/crusade/gihad/whatever this war will be fought until
the last dog is dead period.

the problem is there are many dogs, now and being born and raised to follow these belief's

the rep's and dem's can haggle forever over what is the right way to do it, but basically it all is politics and power between them
they both behind closed doors realize that to effectively finish this war off, one will have to pick up a very big hammer and crush it everywhere
it comes up on the planet.

as for GWB sure i will admit he aint perfect, and to the dem's i say to friggin bad!

Clinton was not perfect and i had to suffer with his ugly mug for 8 years, i lived, and so will you.

get over it, and move on.

i figure that the Dem's will probably get the whitehouse this go around, if so, i am going to drop out.
yes i will hate it, be miserable, but i too will have to live with it.

i will do my level best not to clutter this board up with complaints about that administration.

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Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2006, 11:40:32 PM »
The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling.

We found 500 shells that David Kay said, "expired sarin missles, less dangerous than products most people have under their kitchen sink".  He also said, about Iraq WMD, "We were all wrong".  What do you mean an old saw of the left.  As I said before, Saddam was looking out for number one, not Allah, so he and the Islamac zealots distrusted one another.

Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters.

These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed.

Again, most of the MSM is owned by the biggerst corporations in the world.  Please explain why these huge corporations have an agenda against Republicans and conservatives.  Explain the discrepancies in treatment that different candidates received from the MSM, as I described above.

mobile_bob

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2006, 03:01:55 AM »
"Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters."

have you considered that there would be more losses of life in the age group if they had stayed at home, via car accidents, mugging, shootings, hang gliding etc.

there is evidence that as a group the guys and gals are safer in iraq than here in the states.

hard to accept i know, much harder to accept a son lost in war than from a car crash. either way he is dead.

don't see much protest marches to raise the drinking and driving age to 30 here, to protect these young folks

the thing is, what would you have done differently?  let them bomb the towers and turn the other cheek?

how many other towers would have to fall with how many more men, women and children killed before you would do the same?

easy to be a monday morning quarterback!

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Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2006, 05:11:16 AM »
"Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters."

have you considered that there would be more losses of life in the age group if they had stayed at home, via car accidents, mugging, shootings, hang gliding etc.
I'll give you points for creativity, but there's no blood on our hands for accidental deaths.

the thing is, what would you have done differently?  let them bomb the towers and turn the other cheek?

how many other towers would have to fall with how many more men, women and children killed before you would do the same?
Oh hell no.  Bin Laden's the one I want.  You should want him too, everyone should.  It's inexcusable that he got away.  We should have thrown every resource at our disposal towards capturing him in Afghanistan.  After that we should have sewn up the Taliban in Afghanistan, but nice.  For two percent of what we spent on Iraq we could have build roads, hospitals and schools in Afghanistan.  We'd have moderate Muslims all over the world wishing we'd invade their country next.

Note that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and the Saudi ambassador's wife cut some checks to some unsavory characters here in the states.  I would have gotten answers for that.

One thing I would certainly not have done would be to attack a secular nation in a war on Islamofascism.  Saddam was as low as humanity can sink, but he wasn't my fault.  I have every good wish for the people of Iraq, but I didn't feel responsible for Saddam.  I do feel responsible for the civil war there.  Saddam didn't have a damn thing to do with 9/11, but there are a lot of Saudis who did.

easy to be a monday morning quarterback!

Sometimes.

Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2006, 06:05:09 AM »
It is MUCH easier (if intellectually lazy and dishonest) to demonize the current admininstration than to acknowledge the real battle, and to come to grips with the facts -- that Islam is a force for evil in the world, and that those who are determined to proseletyze it with violence must be fought wherever they are.
How do you justify the fact that we attacked a secular country in a war on Islam?

I am critical of the adminstration for this, but also for its pervasive corruption.  Republicans DeLay, Ney, Jerry Lewis, Pombo, Cunningham, Norquist, Frist, Abramoff, Safavian, Libby, Doolittle, etc etc are indicted or under investigation.  The right's retort is that the the corruption is bipartisan, but that's bull.  William Jefferson is a garden variety crook, and there are a couple of other Dems in trouble for this and that,  but the current crop of Republicans contains a web of corruption.  I recited those names off the top of my head, but I can get more if you like.

I'm also critical of the administration for general incompetence.  True to his background, Bush hasn't done much of anything very well as President.  It's really hard to know where to start in making a list.

It's a hard jump to make from the liberal "we are all brothers" mantra  - unless the first step is to decide that Republicans are so evil they must not be our brothers. That is where the media whores have decided to focus.
For my part I'm as happy to vote Repub.  I liked Bush Sr. somewhat.

Again the MSM is predominanlty owned by the largest corporations on earth, the last entities you'd expect to form a liberal cabal.  Can you explain the discrepancies of press coverage between Dem and Repub candidates that I listed above?

The REAL enemy uses that in his favor.  So long as the US government is busy defending itself from those internal skirmishes, it can't focus on battling the global threat that waits to consume all of us.
 

Bush thought his mission was accomplished in 2003, and now says the battle will go on through 2008 when he's out of office.  This is against a country that used to be secular as was no threat to anybody.  Now we're worried about it becoming a Shiite gov't allied with Iran.  You're saying if we'd just leave him alone everything would be okay?

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2006, 07:27:39 AM »
I think that you are trying to fit the Islamic mind into your mold. Giving them roads and hospitals sounds nice and makes everyone feel fuzzy and warm. Heck, it was the main vote getter for incumbent politicians in the USA for generations.
The Islamic leader demands compulsory religious war. Just a short read of Islamic history reveals a warring growth industry, that declares all territory held "Shat-l-Islami" (World of Islam) no unbelievers are technically allowed to enter. All territory once held (big tracts of Spain and France) is still considered to belong to them, and all infidels are to be driven out. The rest of the world is to be converted to Islam, at knife point if required, but there is no doubt that it is compulsory. It must be done. The Califate must be restored.
The state of Islamic society is their sacrament to Allah. To see us doing well, and their economy shattered, that is a deep insult to a jihadist. But instead of advancing his cultures living condition, he feels he must destroy yours. He does not give you credit for building him a hospital or a road. He is superior to you and you owe it to him. He does not care much for it anyway because it threatens his view of the order of things.
Radical Islam represents about 20% of the Islamic population, I believe, based on voting in Egypt and Turkey, where they get to vote, and the police don't come back and kill you if you didn't vote 'correctly'. (Even greater in Palestine) That's alot of people who wouldn't mind sawing your head off.
All your aguements seem to indicate that you are not able to identify the enormity of this challenge. You are making small acusations about politics-as-usual, while the world lurches toward a WWI scenario.
Hillary gets it. I don't want her for Prez, but she votes for the war on terror, and Moveon.org hates her for it. Leiberman gets it, and is still a liberal. The party of the big D is trying to dump him on this one issue.
In the last few years the exposure of the degree of Islamic incursion into western society has made it ever easier to see what will happen, and the number of people in denial gets smaller as the threat gets bigger. Dhimis that apologise for them, or try to appease them only help the Islamic cause. Have you noticed that not one prisoner or hostage of Islam is ever released? After all consessions and ransoms and publicity are wrung out for all they are worth, the person is tortured and ritually butchered. Sure seems nice at Gitmo in comparison.
We are good. Jihad is bad. There is no moral equivalence.
Oh, and Haliburtons biggest share holder used to be Lady Bird Johnson the wife of President L B J (D). so it's a bipartisan owned public held corporation. That Cheny Haliburton saw don't fly either.
Veep Al gore renewed their exclusive gov't contract when they were underbid, because they have the expeience for the job, and a track record of success, whether a D or an R sits in the oval office.
Oh, and about our sons and daughters. I accept that they are grown up enough to enter the world and have their moment. There can  never be an end to protecting good from evil, and this generation of volunteer sevicemen & women don't need or want your interfering protection. They don't appreciate the mainstream media lying about them, and Self hating internationalist americans trying to get them killed by reporting security details and encouraging our enemy. (They do apreciate those air conditioners)
And that Arguement about Iraq being a secular country....looks rediculous right now. Saddam asserted that he was secular, but the Baathists (his party) are Sunnis. He suppressed Shiites and Kurds. Terrorists were allowed to traverse his country, maintain training camps and get patched up in his hospitals. Abu Nidal lived there. Saddam cut personal checks of $20,000 to the mothers of Palistinian bombers. He violated every UN cease fire resolution and used WMD on his own Kurds. Banned weapons parts are showing up in scrap yards in Turkey. Don't make Iraq out as some innocent country that wasn't trying to hurt anybody. Left to fester, Iraq was a keystone to future trouble. Bill Clinton started the official US policy to remove Saddam from office. The Senate agreed by vast bipartisan majority.
We are winning. The most amazing thing happened along the way. People are begining to realize that we won the VietNam war too. We left in disgrace, and North Vietnam won the field, But the Soviet Union nearly bankrupted themselves and our economy kept on rolling.  Reagan's high frontier caused a spending race that finnished the USSR off without that atomic war no one wanted. My point is that you may not know what victory looks like, so you wouldn't be able to tell if your being lied to by MSM or out of power politicians. Heck, if you read the newspapers, you'd think Harry Reid runs the Senate and Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the house.
I know this forum attracts doomsayers that want to talk about living 'off grid' and surviving 'The Big One', but odds are that your leaders are smarter than the bench warmers and nay sayers. The big D had power for a good 50 years. I don't think the big R will have it that long, but they will if no rational opposition comes forward, and that's what I worry about. 
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Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2006, 03:35:57 PM »
I think that you are trying to fit the Islamic mind into your mold. Giving them roads and hospitals sounds nice and makes everyone feel fuzzy and warm. Heck, it was the main vote getter for incumbent politicians in the USA for generations.
The Islamic leader demands compulsory religious war. Just a short read of Islamic history reveals a warring growth industry, that declares all territory held "Shat-l-Islami" (World of Islam) no unbelievers are technically allowed to enter. All territory once held (big tracts of Spain and France) is still considered to belong to them, and all infidels are to be driven out. The rest of the world is to be converted to Islam, at knife point if required, but there is no doubt that it is compulsory. It must be done. The Califate must be restored.
The state of Islamic society is their sacrament to Allah. To see us doing well, and their economy shattered, that is a deep insult to a jihadist. But instead of advancing his cultures living condition, he feels he must destroy yours. He does not give you credit for building him a hospital or a road. He is superior to you and you owe it to him. He does not care much for it anyway because it threatens his view of the order of things.

Certainly some Muslims feel this way.

Radical Islam represents about 20% of the Islamic population, I believe, based on voting in Egypt and Turkey, where they get to vote, and the police don't come back and kill you if you didn't vote 'correctly'. (Even greater in Palestine) That's alot of people who wouldn't mind sawing your head off.

So 80% of the population is more concerned with earning a living, raising their children and so forth, much like most of the people here.  Bin Laden wants to force this 80% to choose sides.  He was no doubt delighted when Bush attacked the only secular nation in the region.

All your aguements seem to indicate that you are not able to identify the enormity of this challenge. You are making small acusations about politics-as-usual, while the world lurches toward a WWI scenario.

I'll answer this if you can quote what I've said that supports this.  What accusation did I make that is small, for instance?

Oh, and Haliburtons biggest share holder used to be Lady Bird Johnson the wife of President L B J (D). so it's a bipartisan owned public held corporation. That Cheny Haliburton saw don't fly either.

How many cost plus contracts do you hand out?  Me neither.  Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq.  Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now.  They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat.  The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract.  It sure smells like profiteering.  What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?

Oh, and about our sons and daughters. I accept that they are grown up enough to enter the world and have their moment. There can  never be an end to protecting good from evil, and this generation of volunteer sevicemen & women don't need or want your interfering protection.

Again, Iraq was a secular nation and not a threat to Israel much less the US.  Those 2,500 kids died for no reason.  How do you know how many of them would like to come home right now?  How do you know how many parents feel their children died in vain?

They don't appreciate the mainstream media lying about them, and Self hating internationalist americans trying to get them killed by reporting security details and encouraging our enemy. (They do apreciate those air conditioners)

I've never met anyone who wants our soldiers to die.  Anyone who feels this way is simply a traitor.  Will you please answer my original questions about the MSM?  You keep invoking it, but you won't respond to the reply I gave you.  Why did the MSM treat Bush and the other candidates so differently?

And that Arguement about Iraq being a secular country....looks rediculous right now. Saddam asserted that he was secular, but the Baathists (his party) are Sunnis.

We're a secular nation and our leaders are all Christian.

Iraq was a secular nation.  That is why Dr. Germ was a woman; women were allowed to study and drive and so forth.  That is why there was distrust between him and Bin Laden.  Bin Laden is motivated by his faith, Saddam was motivated by power.

Saddam cut personal checks of $20,000 to the mothers of Palistinian bombers.

That's true, but he did it for political reasons.  He never did anything for Allah.


Don't make Iraq out as some innocent country that wasn't trying to hurt anybody. Left to fester, Iraq was a keystone to future trouble.

I didn't say it was innocent.  I said it was not a threat, and that is true.  There were no WMD programs underway, so I don't see how it was a 'keystone to future trouble' as much as say Iran or North Korea or maybe even Pakistan.  We're bogged down in a war that didn't have to happen, by an administration which had no idea what it was getting into.  Wolfowitz said, "There's no history of ethnic strife in Iraq."  Bush thought he was done in 2003.  They immediately disbanded the Iraqi army, leaving thousands of armed, unemployed, angry men.  So not only was the war unnecessary, it was painfully mismanaged.

We are winning.

You need to support that somehow.

People are begining to realize that we won the VietNam war too.

No, they aren't.  You are the only person I've ever heard say that.

...you wouldn't be able to tell if your being lied to by MSM or out of power politicians. Heck, if you read the newspapers, you'd think Harry Reid runs the Senate and Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the house.

Really, please explain to me the specific examples I gave of the MSM treating Bush better than the other guys, and why the biggest companies in the world have formed a liberal cabal.  You owe me that, given the number of times you've appealed to this meme.

I know this forum attracts doomsayers that want to talk about living 'off grid' and surviving 'The Big One', but odds are that your leaders are smarter than the bench warmers and nay sayers. The big D had power for a good 50 years. I don't think the big R will have it that long, but they will if no rational opposition comes forward, and that's what I worry about. 

I see good and bad come from both parties.  To me Hillary is everything that was bad about Bill but without his good points.  I don't know much about Wesley Clark but he seemed like a bright spot last time around.

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2006, 04:59:04 PM »
o not only was the war unnecessary, it was painfully mismanaged.

Study history.

It actually looks like it was acutely well managed.

"mismanagement" assumes the end result aimed for was a stable modern society.

The impression I've had throughout is that what everyone here wants (just like africa) is everyone there fighting themselves.

If I could cause the USA to have another civil war, and the US army to fight itself on US soil, North Korea could kick your ass with what was left over after two or three decades of that.

Nah, machiavelli could understand modern world politics and macro-economics in a heartbeat.
 
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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2006, 05:09:33 PM »
MSM browbeats this administration continuously.
They demanded the resignation of every cabinet member, one at a time Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, etc. etc. Where do you think the low poll numbers come from? MSM creates them by continuous negative reporting. All the MSM TV and our local newspapers openly stumped for Gore and Kerry in the presidential elections.
They don't report good economic news without adding a negative personal story, or some other detractor. You wouldn't know the deficit is being reduced this year due to a 5% economic growth by reading the Seattle papers.
There has not been one story of a heroic US serviceman in this conflict. Only death, wounds, and atrocities (usually without proof). Bill C never got that kind of negative coverage in Bosnia, and he was running the same kind of executive powers 'cowboy diplomacy' show. Except it was to assist Islam and suppress Christians.
As for mismanaged, Also consider that the enemy has the ability to change plans to mess ours up. War is about starting with a plan and changing it as conditions warrent and your supplies / training allow. Accusations of missmanagement don't fly, because the death rate is not in the tens of thousands for our troops. The statistics don't bear out the accusations. Yes it takes time, and yes, we are winning. The logistics required take time. The tactics of the enemy change and matching that takes time. But terrorist bombings dropped 20% after Al Zarkowi passed on. Every little bit helps.
William Randolf Hearst was one of the most conservative newspapermen, but he owned the Seattle PI, the most liberal paper in town. I never could understand why he didn't exert some control over the editors...So I don't believe the ownership has as much control as you think it does. I don't know whay that is.
Yes BinLadin wants the 80% to follow him, and considers our reaction a positive move, yet somehow he has to hide in a cave in Pakistan or Iran and make blind pronouncements about week old events. That's better than dead, that's impotent and bypassed by history. He's gone to direct internet posting because Al Jazira has been editing his content, and he doesn't like that!
As for small complaints;
You said "Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq.  Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now.  They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat.  The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract.  It sure smells like profiteering.  What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?"
LBJ thru LadyBird owned the junk collection for military vehicles during VietNam. Huge money recovering those shot up trucks and tanks etc. This always goes on, does not matter who is in control, and must be actively watched during any war. It's the small stuff I was talking about.
How are we winning? Iraq has successfully completed 3 election cycles, the death rate is lower than some of USA's major cities like Miami or Detroit. More poeple die in swimming pool accidents or medical malpractice.
Military drawdown without timetable is starting. Libia gave up it's belligerant posture and joined the world of nations, Egypt had open elections, and Syria left Lebanon. Syria is being contained and it's terror ties are comming to light. Iran is showing it's intent for the world, and looks to start trouble, maybe a multinational solution will be found.......at the UN? :D
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Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2006, 06:17:59 PM »
MSM browbeats this administration continuously.
They demanded the resignation of every cabinet member, one at a time Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, etc. etc. Where do you think the low poll numbers come from? MSM creates them by continuous negative reporting. All the MSM TV and our local newspapers openly stumped for Gore and Kerry in the presidential elections.

The low poll numbers come from the fact that most people think Bush is incompetent.   The MSM didn't fabricate the unendable war in Iraq or the incompetent response to Katrina or the fact that the millitary loathes Rumsfeld and so on.

Newspapers always pick a candidate, that's their job.

What I'm curious to hear you respond to is, why did the MSM give Bush such a free pass?  I'll copy what I said:

"I must have heard two hundred outraged remarks in the MSM about Clinton 'not inhaling'.  Bush won't deny cocaine use, and how much did the MSM push him on that?  Bush apparently has a DUI arrest in 1976.  How much would we have heard about that if Clinton did it?  With Bush we don't even know for sure.  Clinton was involved in Whitewater, which Starr spent something like 30 million investigating without levelling charges, and again it was all over the air waves.  Bush sold insider Harkin stock right before catastrophic news, submitted the requisite SEC forms late and undated, and we heard hardly anything about that (he claims he was 'vetted', but the SEC under his dad declined to investigate).  The MSM happily reported that Kerry's involvement in Vietnam was 'dishonorable', when he volunteered to drive around in a PT boat while getting fired at.  Judith Miller works for the NY Times, and plugged the Iraq war as hard as anybody.  Bush wipes away the sins of his youth by saying he was reborn, but he doesn't go to church.  How much would we have heard about it Kerry or Gore or Clinton didn't go to church?  Would the MSM not have a field day if Kerry or Gore had been a cheerleader?"

THAT is how you can impress me.

They don't report good economic news without adding a negative personal story, or some other detractor. You wouldn't know the deficit is being reduced this year due to a 5% economic growth by reading the Seattle papers.
There has not been one story of a heroic US serviceman in this conflict. Only death, wounds, and atrocities (usually without proof). Bill C never got that kind of negative coverage in Bosnia, and he was running the same kind of executive powers 'cowboy diplomacy' show. Except it was to assist Islam and suppress Christians.

Maybe you're right about the papers not covering good economic news, I read it but I don't remember where.  However if I had a paper, I would trumpet the fact that Bush is fiscally a nightmare.  He wants war but he's too yellow to do it right, by paying for it with taxes and drafting an adequate number of soldiers.  I don't hear that from the MSM either.


As for mismanaged, Also consider that the enemy has the ability to change plans to mess ours up. War is about starting with a plan and changing it as conditions warrent and your supplies / training allow. Accusations of missmanagement don't fly, because the death rate is not in the tens of thousands for our troops. The statistics don't bear out the accusations. Yes it takes time, and yes, we are winning. The logistics required take time. The tactics of the enemy change and matching that takes time. But terrorist bombings dropped 20% after Al Zarkowi passed on. Every little bit helps.

I don't see why 2,500 deaths isn't significant whereas tens of thousands is.  Incidentally medical technology has improved vastly as you probably know, so there are proportionally many more maimed soldiers than in past wars.  What statistic shows that we are winning?  The death toll is steady: http://icasualties.org/oif/.  Al Zarqawi just died so your sample seems small to me.  Can you give me a citation?

William Randolf Hearst was one of the most conservative newspapermen, but he owned the Seattle PI, the most liberal paper in town. I never could understand why he didn't exert some control over the editors...So I don't believe the ownership has as much control as you think it does. I don't know whay that is.

I guess that he wanted to paper to sell well.  That is the elephant in the room for lots of conservatives, that people actually like a lot of liberal policies.  Myself I'd rather finance my own retirement, but the populace really likes social security, for all its warts.  GM can't sell cars because their expenses are higher due to health care costs.  Secretly they'd probably like the government to take that over.

Yes BinLadin wants the 80% to follow him, and considers our reaction a positive move, yet somehow he has to hide in a cave in Pakistan or Iran and make blind pronouncements about week old events. That's better than dead, that's impotent and bypassed by history. He's gone to direct internet posting because Al Jazira has been editing his content, and he doesn't like that!

I don't see how anyone can think missing Bin Laden is okay.  He was behind 9/11!  Don't you want revenge?

As for small complaints;
You said "Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq.  Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now.  They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat.  The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract.  It sure smells like profiteering.  What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?"
LBJ thru LadyBird owned the junk collection for military vehicles during VietNam. Huge money recovering those shot up trucks and tanks etc. This always goes on, does not matter who is in control, and must be actively watched during any war. It's the small stuff I was talking about.

I still don't see what that proves.  Ladybird strangles puppies for all I know.

How are we winning? Iraq has successfully completed 3 election cycles, the death rate is lower than some of USA's major cities like Miami or Detroit. More poeple die in swimming pool accidents or medical malpractice.
Military drawdown without timetable is starting.

Like I said the death toll is steady.  The civil war between the Shiites and Sunnis seems worse and worse.


Libia gave up it's belligerant posture and joined the world of nations, Egypt had open elections, and Syria left Lebanon. Syria is being contained and it's terror ties are comming to light. Iran is showing it's intent for the world, and looks to start trouble, maybe a multinational solution will be found.......at the UN? :D

I agree Bush probably deserves some credit for Libya and maybe for Libya, but the Egypt elections seeed like a sham.  But if you want to go there, then I will bring up the fact that Bush's policies -- or lack thereof -- couldn't be much worse for N. Korea nd Iran.