Author Topic: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt  (Read 20580 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2006, 04:06:17 PM »
Guy:

my friend you are definetely an aquired taste, just not one that has any consistancy.

while you and i might agree on all things mechanical, theoretical, and diabolical , we certainly are on opposing sides here.

i believe very little that is published in newspapers, without alot of supporting evidence, even then i wonder.

i dont believe much of what my government puts out, my press, or for that matter most educators as well. that also goes for all other governments, press and educators.

years ago, i purchased an old shortwave radio, i repaired it and tuned in radio moscow, remember Joe Anamov (sp), i listened to his take on the us and world events.
funny thing was, his reasoning, delivery and supporting facts were presented in just as believable manner as those from my evening news guy (albeit diametrically opposed)

i woke up to the realization, that everyone has an axe to grind, a reason to skew the facts, report some, hide others etc. basically it is "follow the money"

is GW the best president of all time, probably not, was he the right guy at the right time, yes.

as for the florida vote, if the dem's would have sit down with the republicans and come to an agreement over ground rules on the recount, perhaps the outcome would have been different. But they did not, they instead tried first one thing then another, sort of like playing cards with a child and having constantly changing rules when the child is losing.

even if i was to concede that al gore should have been pres, and he was robbed (which i am not), i don't hear you mentioning the election of 1960, where nixon lost to kennedy, with a few hundred thousand votes found floating in the river in chicago. in that case nixon was told about them, and decided not to contest the election because of damaging the trust of the people in the system.

oh btw, when you guys going to grow up over there and quit the fairy tale with the queen thing anyway?  hehe
hey you lob a dirt clod, i can lob one back at ya, only fair    :)

bob g
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Procrustes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2006, 04:12:00 PM »
Procrustes,
You really need to get your facts straight before you spout off like that…it makes you sound like some idiot goofball..which I'm sure you are not.  Start with a few details… check the facts then get back with us on what you find.
Joe


The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said.  Put up or shut up.

mobile_bob

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2006, 04:17:09 PM »
"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)

geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?

pasadena paper?  for godsakes man!

for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.

you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.

i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.

have you spent anytime in the midwest, the deep south, the plains?

we gotta get you outta england and into the heart of this country for a while. :)

bob g
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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2006, 04:50:04 PM »
Ah, what the heck.

My thoughts. (I only choose my conclusions after the facts...so I can always be right! Thats what is important isn't it, being right all the time, being the winner?)

M3 is no longer reported. The word trillion is being tossed about quite easily. What that means to me is that my paltry earnings are going to be worth- less. Think hyperinflation. Think my children, your children.

Didn't we have a 7 day work week before unions came on the scene.....wonder why that changed?

Is it really wrong for a wealthy nation to provide basic medical care for all? How is that a bad thing? We certainly have the money to wage war....so can't some of that money be used to take care of the nations people? Maybe even feed them?  Oh, right. No compassion to free loaders. Even if it hurts honest folk too.

Why do lobbyists exist?  What do you mean our government is for sale?

Everyone has a duty to speak up. Everyone has the right to be heard. What do you mean this is a no protest zone?

'people have the right to remain secure'  right up to the point of warrantless eavesdropping and so on. Don't worry if you have nothing to hide....however....now that drinking alcohol has been made a retro active felony....spread em!

NAIS....mandatory chip placement on ALL animals. by 2009. chickens, pigs, horses, dogs, cats. They want to monitor all the animals....but leave a wide open border??? Track all animals, but illegal aliens have a free pass cause they do the jobs Americans won't do?

Homeland security. Open borders. Anyone see a disconnect?

As stated by Merle Haggard in a recent song....AMERICA FIRST

rgroves

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2006, 05:02:37 PM »
"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)

geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?

pasadena paper?  for godsakes man!

for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.

you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.

i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.

have you spent anytime in the midwest, the deep south, the plains?

we gotta get you outta england and into the heart of this country for a while. :)

bob g

No we don't.   Too f-in many of that sort around here already. 

There's an old Texas saying, which applies all over here in flyover country.

"We don't give a shit how y'all done things up north"
And that applies, doubled,  for any country that has royalty and no Bill of Rights.

rg
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fuddyduddy

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2006, 05:23:41 PM »
Bob,
Once again-Thank you for your lucid and straightforward comments.

Would really like to jump in with "both feet", but will restrain myself. WILL make a couple of comments.

There are three "flavors" of truth. And am restricting this to truth in the first person.
 
One is, the truth.

Two is, the truth as we KNOW it.

The third is the truth as we believe it to be.

The three can and frquently are a long ways from one another, and yet we all frequently defend one as being the other.

Please allow me to offer one simple example.

1)45% of all 1994-2002 ***** pickups with ******* diesel engines experienced a gross injector pump failure within 60,000 miles.

2)Jim Bob and Donnie Johnson's pickups both went over 180,000 miles without ANY pump troubles.

3)I believe that ***** diesel pickup injector pumps are REALLY dependable.

And the point is this; even mechanical devices have those people who say, "this is good, and that is bad". Happens all the time everywhere, not just on this forum. And without PERSONAL experience, AND that of those around you, it can be difficult to sort the truth from the rubbish.
 
Newspapers, TV news, etc, have REAL problems with factual reporting. Increasingly, they desire readers/viewers, and forego much of the truth in order to build an audience. It is very obvious to me that some of our British relatives have great difficulty in understanding that a large amount of the crap they ingest from the media is not THE TRUTH.

Try this on; we can all report on what we want to on this forum BECAUSE we are basically free. (Yes, T-19 applies his "justice" in a very erratic and un-even handed manner!). Do any of you think this can be or is done in Cuba or North Korea? (and elesewhere!)

So for me, I'll take my 60-some years of  experience, and ALWAYS lean toward more freedom, less government, less taxes, less socialism, etc, etc, etc.

One question for Bob, didn't Ford use an IH engine in many of their early pickups (6.9 or 7.3?) that was very reliable?

Fuddy Duddy





 

GuyFawkes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2006, 07:02:55 PM »
"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)

geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?

pasadena paper?  for godsakes man!

for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.

you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.

i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.

no, that's the weird thing about it, I've met *loads* of yanks (OK by definition because I have never been to the USA they are all that subset of US citizens who travel abroad) and talk to loads online.

of that loads I've met very very few bigoted, small minded, stupid, dumb or anything else, perhaps the sample I have met have been loaded in favour of being ex servicemen, but apart from that, from all over the us, all colours and religions

I'll have to quote one of them now when this very subject was last discussed, "not in my name"

Trust me, the rest of the world does not equate "USA" with the average american citizen.

Nobody thinks the average american citizen lives in a 12 bedroom house, has kids who drive mint mustangs from the age of 16, owns 47 different automatic weapons and the odd anti tank or aircraft weapon, or is a retard out of a stephen king novel.

Everybody thinks, and this is a view often agreed with by ex-pat americans, that the sheer size of the states and the history of the federation means most of you ain't got a clue about the rest of the world (imagine travelling from north dakota to south dakota to find and entirely different language, currency, cuisine, history, and a 1000 year tradition of fighting wars with each other)

but, and this is 100% serious and factual

go to most of europe and ask what is the most notable thing about americans, and the answer you will get most is this.

"they have bigger canadian flags on their luggage / backpacks than the canadians do"

You can probably quite accurately lay 95% of the blame for any anti-american prejudice that *does* exist right at the door of hollywood

The new / current hollywood movie about marie antionette is literally upsetting more people in france (the country that gave you the statue of liberty) than all the comments about cheese eating surrender monkeys and hairy women who don't wash could ever have done.

Europe has a reverance for history, and sneers at attampts by the state to intervene in the affairs of man.

We have a thousand years of history, even if some regime holds sway for 50 years, we put it into perspective, what we don't like is outsiders re-writing it for us.

Here's an example, back in the day I rode an old HD FXE all the way to moscow, this was at a time when people will tell you all you had in moscow was queues of people lining up for loaves made of sawdust because of the latest crop failure, with every third person in the queue being anally probed by the kgb. I didn't see any of that. Nor did I see anyone homeless, or in a home they couldn't afford to heat, I couldn't have sold a pair of blue jeans or an elvis tape for more than  the price of a beer, not because it was illegal, but because everyone who wanted such things already had them.

Yeah, there were shortages, if you wanted a coke or a big mac you were shit out of luck, but nobody went hungry, everyone I met eat really well, drank really well too. Biggest thing I learned about the russians was a flair for the tragic, their version of country and western music I guess...

Come here and sit in a bar and hear people talking about our german queen with her greek prince consort, shit, the queens jubilee year the sex pistols were number one in the charts with anarchy in the UK, closely followed by such classics as the queens got VD and so on.

Go from bar to bar and try to find someone who has any respect for prime minister blair, or indeed just about anyone in parliament, shit, we put our members of parliament in prison on a regular basis, that is apart from the odd juicy one like the homosexual MP and his lover and the hit man who missed and shot his dog instead.

I think we do understand americans and america, hell, we've done it, all you need to do is read the history books, I'd say the common attitude here is that americans and america don't understand us, you're too young, 200 odd years ain't enough.

I can trace my heritage back, every single generation and the names of each one, back a thousand years, lot of history in there too, the relative on the lusitania, the relative who stood by napoleon bonaparte, the relative dragged up in front of the church in 1700;s holland to explain how he had gotten a girl pregnant out of wedlock, my grandad who went to america to make his fortune and worked for the young henry ford, my dad who went to canada and then the far east.

we know about flyover culture and the silent masses, when a european speaks about bush, or enron, or haliburton, he isn't talking about the silent masses, not because he doesn't know they exist, but because he does, and his own country had them too, hell, 1930's germany had them, vichy france had them, we have them here now, over one million, that's 2% of the population, so the USA equivalent would be 6 million people descending on DC, and protesting against the war, and every one of them knew there were no WMD (which was the sole excuse at the time) and it didn't change a bloody thing.

I challenge you to find a single thing, good or bad, that USA or anyone else come to that has done that we haven't done to a greater extreme, even concentration camps were a british invention, as was medical experimentation on inmates (feeding alum to the africans) and black hole of calcutta anyone? firebombing dresden? heard of cromwell? slave trade? exploiting foreign lands for resources?

Hell, as I type everyone is pissed off because england and germany can't replay WW2 in the world cup, 1966 was the last time of note...

So Gore Vidal is biased because he knew the Gores and Kennedy's, and?

No, the fundamental difference is that here in europe institutions and people just don't get the respect they do in the states, classic example is the ID card system.

In the states you'd get a few liberals screaming about it and being ignored, a few claiming it will curb illegal migrant workers, and most people just wondering if it means they don't need their zip code and social security number to buy something.

Here in the UK it gets a lot of the "german queen and her greek prince" talk, the kind of talk americans seem to take personally and take offence too, no, it ain't a "Homeland security freedom card", it's a piece of shit that won't work, it won't work because government is doing it, and nothing government ever does in times like these works.... the only time governments do anything that works is in times where shit has to be done and no-one cares about niceties, like the post war depression when we got a national health service.

My girlfriend is pregnant, so far I've taken her to the hospital twice (one all that untrasound shit where they measure the fetus to give a birth date and look for things like downs syndrome etc) and doctor three times and midwife twice, she's sixteen weeks gone so far, no charge, never more than a 30 minute wait, no question of second grade medical staff, equipment or treatment.

We can go anywhere in europe tomorrow and that won't change.

Next week I have to go to the dentist, too many years of travelling and rough conditions have taken their toll, I can't be assed any more so I made the choice to have em all out and have dentures, no charge.

If you're 18 and can't get a job the absolute minimum dole payment is 54 pounds, about 100 bucks, a week, not means tested, not limited to a few weeks, not meant to cover housing, so nobody has an excuse to rob someone else to eat

If you live here you'd think tony blair and london is all that exists, except you wouldn't, and we here in europe don't think bush and DC speak for america any more than blair and london speak for us.

SNAFU, an american saying, didn't mean they weren't believers in their country or were press ganged into service....

Bush isn't the USA, but americans don't seem to like that being said.
Blair isn't the UK, and you have to search long and hard for an englishman that will disagree, apart from Blair himself of course...

two peoples separated by a pond and a common language, but a different culture.

Let's bring it back on topic.

Listers. What;s unique about them, how do you know it was an english engine and not say a german one?

It's upright.

___THAT___ is culture.

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mobile_bob

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2006, 07:04:43 PM »
yessir the 6.9, the 7.3 along with the power stroke, the 6.0 liter powerstroke, and now even a V6 version are IH/navistar designed and manufactured for
ford.

the 6.9 was a good engine in p/u's, had a few issues with location of firering on their head gskts early on that was exacerbated by heavy hauling, they updated the gskts
and that seemed to work.  most of the failures on these engines were maintenance related in the early years

the 7.3 was a larger brother of the 6.9,  the fords called them 7.3 in there pickups and the international used them as well, good engines, and history

the powerstroke is basically a 7.3 with the HUI injection system on it, this system was a co-project between CAT and Navistar, so the same basic injection system
is used on the powerstroke and engine from cat such as the 3126, and the new C7.  Navistar called there 7.3/powerstroke the 444e model, 444 ci/electronic
these engines do very well if maintained well, they need clean oil and fuel for the high pressure pumps to servive.

The 6.0 liter powerstroke is quite an engine, has a variable pitch turbo, EGR, high velocity exhaust ports, instant starting, throttle responce of a chainsaw.
pretty impressive engines with the same torque and hp of the 7.3 liter. i dont know how they are doing in service.

i see navistar reintroduced an american made small cab over truck, and it is using a v6 version of the 6.0 liter, making about 225 hp
dont know how they are doing yet either .

as for less government, less beauracracy, less permitting, etc etc.
i stand shoulder to shoulder on that one Fuddyduddy

your three levels of truth is spot on,
and the disparity between each of them is nothing short of amazing at times.

kind of like:

"my mind is made up, dont confuse me with the facts" or

"i dont accept you reality, i like my own"

i guess it takes us all to make the world go round, :) which leads me to the old saying
"
"stop the world i want off"

hahaha

bob g
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fuddyduddy

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2006, 07:33:52 PM »
yessir the 6.9, the 7.3 along with the power stroke, the 6.0 liter powerstroke, and now even a V6 version are IH/navistar designed and manufactured for
ford.

the 6.9 was a good engine in p/u's, had a few issues with location of firering on their head gskts early on that was exacerbated by heavy hauling, they updated the gskts
and that seemed to work.  most of the failures on these engines were maintenance related in the early years

the 7.3 was a larger brother of the 6.9,  the fords called them 7.3 in there pickups and the international used them as well, good engines, and history

the powerstroke is basically a 7.3 with the HUI injection system on it, this system was a co-project between CAT and Navistar, so the same basic injection system
is used on the powerstroke and engine from cat such as the 3126, and the new C7.  Navistar called there 7.3/powerstroke the 444e model, 444 ci/electronic
these engines do very well if maintained well, they need clean oil and fuel for the high pressure pumps to servive.

The 6.0 liter powerstroke is quite an engine, has a variable pitch turbo, EGR, high velocity exhaust ports, instant starting, throttle responce of a chainsaw.
pretty impressive engines with the same torque and hp of the 7.3 liter. i dont know how they are doing in service.

i see navistar reintroduced an american made small cab over truck, and it is using a v6 version of the 6.0 liter, making about 225 hp
dont know how they are doing yet either .

as for less government, less beauracracy, less permitting, etc etc.
i stand shoulder to shoulder on that one Fuddyduddy

your three levels of truth is spot on,
and the disparity between each of them is nothing short of amazing at times.

kind of like:

"my mind is made up, dont confuse me with the facts" or

"i dont accept you reality, i like my own"

i guess it takes us all to make the world go round, :) which leads me to the old saying
"
"stop the world i want off"

hahaha

bob g

Hello Hotater, at last the truth  about your Ford pickup; it is really an IH. Or is that just my belief?

Seems like some of our British relatives have IQs around 70; at least based on some of the crap they post. Too much inbreeding on that small island?

Spent 17 years as a pilot for Uncle Sugar, and must say, the truth as I know it is; our President could not have flown planes for the military with an IQ of what some fools guess he has. Not sure THAT poster even realizes that truth has flavors...and that even AFTER he was told. Eh Procrustes, does that shoe fit you?
Fuddy Duddy

GuyFawkes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2006, 08:02:20 PM »
OK, here is what you don't understand about europe.

Anyone remember battlestar galactica?

What were the baddies called? Cylons.

Here, this is greeted with hilarity.


-------------------------------------------------

The Sunday Times     July 09, 2006

You’re nicked, live on helmet cam
Will Iredale

POLICE officers across Britain could be issued with miniature cameras attached to their helmets to help gather evidence of crimes without the need for written statements or lengthy court appearances.

The devices enable officers to confront offenders with their crimes by replaying footage to them on the spot. In pilot schemes, offenders have proved far more likely to plead guilty or accept on-the-spot fines or cautions than contest their cases in court.

The Home Office plans a national trial of the cameras using hundreds of officers to assess whether they can increase conviction rates, and they could become standard kit for every police force. They may also help cut crime by, for example, deterring thugs from fighting when there is an officer nearby.

At least 12 offenders have been punished using evidence recorded by the camera — known as the Cylon body-worn surveillance system — since it became available for individual forces to test last December.

The crimes recorded range from breaking into a car to assaulting a police officer and fighting outside a nightclub. After playing back the footage, police say all the offenders accepted their guilt rather than tying up magistrates’ time with a “not guilty” plea.

“We have been getting really good quality primary evidence from the outset and we have had a number of incidents where the offenders have seen the footage and have said ‘Okay, hands up, I cannot deny that’,” said Sergeant Olly Taylor, a beat officer in Plymouth.

After a small-scale trial using 10 cameras, Taylor said he had been asked by the Home Office to conduct a six-month trial starting this September with 200 officers trained to use 50 cameras during day and night patrols in Plymouth city centre.

“We think it can make a real difference in the way we gather evidence in crimes such as alcohol-related violence and yobbery in public places,” he said.

If the scheme is successful, the Home Office will produce national guidelines for all forces with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Crown Prosecution Service.

Martin Goodall, a chief inspector from Hampshire police, heading the programme for the policing standards unit at the Home Office, said his group would use the trials in Plymouth and in forces including West Midlands, Avon and Somerset and Northumbria to evaluate the camera’s effectiveness.

Each device weighs about 25oz and can produce high-quality digital video or stills and record sound. The camera can be attached to existing police helmets and is worn level with the eyes. It is able to film in whichever direction the officer’s head is turned. A wire links the camera, which is the size of a marker pen, to a 4in screen worn on the belt on which footage can be played.

The device can record 400 hours of footage but must be recharged every 12 hours. The film can be downloaded on to a computer or on to a DVD for use in court.

Each camera costs £1,700 and is made by a Plymouth company called Audax. Steve Rogers, chief executive of Audax, said it had sold about 500 cameras to the 43 police forces in England and Wales.

In March Fiona Linehan, 22, from Plymouth, became the first person in the country to be convicted using evidence recorded by a head camera after assaulting a police officer who was wearing one.

In Benwell, Newcastle upon Tyne, an officer used evidence recorded on his head camera to charge a man after spotting him trying to break into a car in May. “The camera caught him and it was easier to admit guilt than dispute it because it is all on film,” said Sergeant Paul Hamilton, a community sergeant with Northumbria police.

He added: “It is a very good tool. If you are accusing someone of a crime they will plead guilty, which reduces the officer’s time completing files for the court and having to attend court to give evidence.”

Other forces in the trial include West Yorkshire and the Metropolitan police, where four head cameras are being tested by mounted officers in Hammersmith, west London.

The Home Office confirmed it was helping to fund the trial but said the cameras would have to be “independently evaluated” before any nationwide scheme took place.
   
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Joe

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2006, 10:11:57 PM »
The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said. Put up or shut up.

I would love to get into this but…I leave very shortly and will not be back until the end of the month…believe me this is not an out…as Arnold always said… “I’ll be back”. 
As senior instructor this duty assessment will be to critique a soon to be Deployed Commander and his/her staff in a high stress field evaluation. This is the last look we get at them before they go to the tip of the spear…if they don’t cut it…they don’t go… As far as senior leadership evaluation…I do have my credentials…I’ll share what I can…when I can…
In my younger days I was a Commander in an Air National Guard Fighter Unit for twelve years…we can start with Bush is a" poor serviceman" if you like... again…you do realize this is not a level playing field we are on…

Also, this should get moved to another forum, as it is OT here.

Joe


« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:13:36 PM by Joe »
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rpg52

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2006, 03:05:32 AM »
I wrote this in 2003, not particularly useful today, but history doesn't go out of date.  Any abbreviated history has huge gaps that are meaningful, but I don't even play a historian on tv.  I wish I had an answer for any of this, but do not.  We have a sizable mess, and no easy way to undo it.  I hate it when I predict disaster and it comes true.

To throw a sop to the "General Discussion" of Lister(oids), mine is still on the back of my pickup, waiting for tractor repair.  Soon I hope, I'll have some photos to post of the unloading and placement of it. 
Ray

The rule of law is taken for granted by Americans.  We assume that other cultures have, like us, respect for most of the laws most of the time.  Unfortunately, this is not generally true, especially in war torn areas.  Afghanistan is a prime example.  There is currently no method for collecting taxes to fund the police in most of Afghanistan, so they are not paid, have no uniforms and don’t even have a copy of the laws they are supposed to uphold.  Typically the police are former soldiers, and, while many of them may wish to enforce civil laws, they have no support.  Of necessity they often must rely on bribes or extortion to survive.  The “Nation Building” efforts of various nations do not yet extend beyond the capitol, Kabul. 

   Which brings us to our incipient problem in Iraq.  Someone observed that the last time Iraqis respected the rule of law was during the reign of Hammurabi.  Hammurabi ruled Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) for 43 years in about 1800 BC, (almost 4,000 years ago).  His code, found in 1901 engraved on a stone stele now kept in the Louvre in Paris, consisted of 282 laws directing the consequences for a variety of civil abuses.  Legal concepts such as the central government enforcing the law, social justice, punishment fitting the crime and others make this ancient code the basis for much current law. 

   Present day Iraq reflects the turbulent history of the area since the time of Hammurabi.  Iraq was conquered by Alexander the Great in 300 BC, by the Muslims in 600 AD, by the Mongols in 1250 AD, again by the Mongol Tamerlane in 1400, and repeatedly caught between the warring Safavids of Iran and the Ottomans of Turkey between 1500 and 1600.  Iraq was controlled by the Ottomans of Turkey from 1600 to early 1900, but weak control enabled a variety of tribal sheiks to rule local areas.  By early 1900 Iraq was divided into many tribal autonomous areas, weakly controlled by Turkey, until the end of World War I.  Turkey was allied with Germany in WWI.  After their defeat, Iraq was turned over to Britain in 1920.  Britain was interested in Iraqi oil fields and in building a railroad from Europe to the Persian Gulf.  Rebellion by Iraqi nationalists in 1920 resulted in the English drawing the borders of modern Iraq in 1932 and imposing a king as ruler.  Oil field development was by the Iraqi Petroleum Company, a British dominated multinational company.  Independence was granted in 1932, but as late as 1941 the British invaded to defeat a rebellion threatening British interests.  Between WWII and 1990 there were 2 wars with Israel, one with Iran, threats and invasions of Kuwait, assassinations, coup d’etat’s, revolts, invasions by the British, etc.   Saddam Hussain assumed the presidency in 1979 and has waged war with Iran and Kuwait, and brutally repressed the Kurds to the north and the Marsh Arabs to the south.  Politics in Iraq is a blood sport, and tribal affiliations often over-ride national loyalties.

   Into this chaotic maelstrom, Mr. Bush proposes to ride in, guns blazing, to depose Saddam, and develop a democratic government.  The Iraqi culture has been ruled by repressive despots, (often foreign) for the last few thousand years, and we are going to build a democracy?  We haven’t even figured out how to fix Afghanistan, what do we think we are doing in Iraq?  Our leaders are going to bankrupt our country, ruin our reputation, destabilize the Middle East and create thousands of terrorists who hate us. It makes me wonder if there is something to be said for electing our president through popular vote.
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Firebrick

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2006, 07:09:30 AM »
I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years.  Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. :P

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2006, 07:21:03 AM »
Democracy is the worst form of government....except all the other ones. (Winston Churchill?)
What I don't hear here is any notion of what happens if nothing was done after 9/11.
Where is the world headed, and what to do about it. Would your wife look good in a Burka? Unchecked, Osama B would be making public appearances and leading a standing army. He'd probaby have aquired atomic bombs from Russia. Radical Islam is on it's Third Crusade. Yes, the Christian Crusades were a reaction to Islamic incursions into Europe. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and is at war perpetually with all it's neighbors.
GWB and Co have a plan. That's at least a start, and a recognition that a problem exists.  The opposition had no plan and still does not. They sound alot like Chaimberlain just before the start of WWII. That does not leave many choices. The last two candidates fielded by the big D were losers. Mainstream media support is said to be worth 15% in a presidential election, and they all threw in with the big D like they always do.
  Kerry fell 3 million votes short. Even with all that media support. Kerry's record as a senator is devoid of any accomplishment. Kerry was created by the media against the war and his 'Veterans against the war'. I don't see any leadership quality there, and no firm convictions to save a nation.
  Gore won the popular, but lost the electoral. Now he behaves in public like a certifiable lunatic. He has no plan, just a warped form of Big Tent Religion based on Junk Science, while he traverses the world spewing hydrocarbons from an old Boeing 707, telling you to do without. He did even poorer in School, in the sevice, and after than GWB. I don't see anything good comming from a Gore presidency.
 
War costs and war dead are the lowest in recorded history. If anyone can pull this off, it's us, and the world community that stands with. We have to keep at it to ever get a good result. Bugging out of Viet Nam resulted in a pogrom that killed at least 3 million people. Leaving like that was irresponsible, and the 'leaders' in media and politics that advocated it are criminals in my book.
Mainstream Media has lost it's omnipotent influence because of the informantion revolution. Hopefully it will never get it back, because journalists in that trade are trying to 'make a difference and change the world'. That is not their job, 'They' are supposed to report the facts.
Facts are sometimes boring, good news is not good copy. News is just another special interest group trying to make a buck. They don't currently deserve to be the 'Fourth Branch of Government' that they like to tell you they are.
Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are still in denial that they broke every journalistic ethic to tilt the election. This is the daily media that Americans filter thru and see thru it.
I'm noticing the current Isreali-Palistinian conflict. The death count is very low. 40 Palistinians and one Jew. By every account the Palistinians invited the Jews in. 900+ rocket attacks and 3 kidnappings in response to a peace jesture of returning Gaza. Just try to imagine that in reverse, a Palistinian horde loosed into Isreali territory. I think it would be a bloodbath.
What's with the double standard here. Beat ourselves up with self loathing and put lots of restrictions on ourselves, while our corrupt stone hurling advarsaries can do no wrong. Why must we try to understand that it is OK for them to slowly saw your head of while you squirm around, but you can't write a word of dissent about them? They want a one way deal, all for them, and they want you to bring it to them. If they have to come get it, then they will kill you now instead of later.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy Murtha's 'Redeployment' Bug out scheme. World War Three has started. It is a war of religious idealogy, and economics. The reason that it started may not matter by the time it's over. WWI was started by an Islamic assasin, and ignited a world that had been arming up for decades.
Form your own conclusion, but keep history in mind. Appeasement has never worked and you cannot reason with madmen. We are under attack, if you want to continue to live like you have, some one is going to have to fight for it. Many young men are able and willing, they are not as jaded as many of us. They still believe in family and country. They are greater than "Our Greatest Generation" all we have to do is support them. What they blog, from their forward locations is totally different from the mainstream media, and has the ring of believability. I think we are winning, while factions at home try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory, just so they can get their patronage job back.
Oh, and sorry to hear about the boots.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

GuyFawkes

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Re: OT - but sorta related - US national Debt
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2006, 08:15:00 AM »
I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years.  Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. :P


actually, this debt was paid off finally earlier this year.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.