Am I missing something?

[YoYoDog]

Again, being new to the forum, I have a question that might seem obvious to the vets here but I was wondering.  If listers are so good, which I truly believe they are, how come someone has'nt recognized the market in America and has'nt come up with an American listeriod that you don't have to tear apart and rebuild/overhaul out of the box?  You think with the export hastles and the outragious shipping costs that it would be economically worthwhile.  Am I out of touch, or has the economic situation gotton that bad?

Just a thought,
Dan

[johnny williams]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[listerdiesel]

It's the manufacturing costs that would kill it stone dead.

The reason that Listers dropped the engine originally was that the captive market they had was lost when the Shah was deposed in Iran, so the one volume market they had was lost, and there was no other market that would take that kind of heavyweight low-output engine.

The reason they are so popular now, is the hobby market and that alone.

The CS diesels are almost scrap price in the UK, I have just sold a pair of complete but non-running radiator cooled engines for under $400. Runners are more expensive, but in the UK there are still lots of engines available.

Peter

[rpg52]

Hey Yoyo,
The great attraction of the listeroids is that they are relatively cheap for what you get - labor costs in India are inconsequential, due to non-existent worker safety standards and environmental laws.  (Pouring molten iron in flip-flops, w/o even eye protection?)  Where else can one get ~700# of cast iron for less than $1000 USD (FOB).  In return you get a design from 1930 - very dangerous, even if mounting/cooling designs are incorporated correctly.  As you point out, shipping is becoming a killer, diesel costs are going crazy, etc., etc.  Non-the-less, a relative bargain today.  Be warned however, they will rip your arm off and beat you to death with the bloody end of it if you slip up!  Similar, reliable, American-made engines (that need no initial clean up) can be had for somewhat less than $10,000, if you care to go that route.  Your choice.  Good luck!   
Ray

[YoYoDog]

Around 10K?  I think that's out of the question.  I am wondering if their is a vender in America that sells listeroids that are already cleaned.  Just in case I decide I might be over my head with this teardown/inspection thing. (Although I think it's within the realm of possibility and it does sound like something that would be fun to do.) 
In case you cant tell, I'm not sure how to handle this. 

Thanks,
Dan

[mobile_bob]

yoyo:

the following is what i would suggest you do before you part with a substantial chunk of money.

1. read all you can stand here, to get an idea of this issues at hand

2. go to utterpower.com  read all you can there, pay particular attention to Quinn's 3 part series

3. order the utterpower CD "lister longevity" at around 20bucks it is a good value, (although there are those that will
argue that point, but one must consider the source)

4. Then sit down and put together an outline of the major subassemblies, such as fuel system, cam/lifters/idler, head assembly, etc
and when you have that much done, go back to your information stack and start with each subassembly and think it through.

for instance

1. head assembly
    a. valves, valve grinding angles
        (1) seat angles,
        (2) valve angles
        (3) interference angles, advantages of 3angles etc.
    b. valve guides
    c. lash caps
    d. rocker assemblies, pads

you get the idea, what you are going to accomplish by doing your homework is saving yourself a lot of issues/stress/broken parts
and a bunch of crying/whining and bitchin later.

also as you go with your outline you will clearly see area's that need more study, which saves you with surprises later when you get an engine.

as for spending 10grand on an engine,
there is no friggin way on gods green earth i would part with 10 grand for a lister/oid engine, and i don't care who built it or what
unobtanium parts were custom fabricated to manufacture it.

if you do your homework, get a decent engine such as one of the kit engines that has not been run, then set out to take it all apart
refer to you outline, and all your study methodically working through your plan to basically carefully reassemble it to whatever blueprinting standard
you feel is necessary.

i see no reason that an average guy that does what i suggested would not end up with a very good engine for 1/6 to 1/5th the 10grand some folks want
for an american remanufactured listeroid.

truth is yours will likely run as long as the 10 grand one anyway.

so your homework and save your money, or
spend more money and have one built for you?

bob g

[YoYoDog]

Thanks for the input guys, especially bob g.  I like your plan the best.  Like I've said in my very first post I've already ordered Georges CD and I can't wait to dig in.  I think I can do this and I'm sure I'll be here asking for more help.

Thanks guys,
Dan

[LincTex]

I can see how someone could spend $10K blueprinting this engine to BMW or Mercedes specs, but why? Big, heavy and slow doesn't need tolerances to the nearest .000001"

Having experience as a machinist and also being a tad OCD, I have to force myself to not make some things/ parts "better". 
If I really wanted to go nuts, I could build my Metro to the same tolerances I used to build customer's circle track racing engines to, but I would accomplish nothing.

I heard an old saying referring to Russian aircraft designers/manufacturers....their philosophy is:
"Perfection is the enemy of 'good enough' "!

[xyzer]

I heard an old saying referring to Russian aircraft designers/manufacturers....their philosophy is:
"Perfection is the enemy of 'good enough' "!

An old Lister head saying is "crap just don't last long". Most guys arn't "blueprinting" these things just correcting known issues that tend to be common in the Indian "Thats good enough" philosophy. They are real ugly issues like sand.....off location rockers..... hole locations ect...... I do agree with the Russian saying but if you run some of these "Listeroids" as is it just won't last long.
Dave

[Doug]

I have respect for things Soviet ( and maybe a bit of nostalga ).

I think Shiny where it needs to be is a much discription of many pieces of Russian/Ukranian design.

Most people look at it and don't get it. Even Russian junk was never designed to be thrown away. Once you gopt it home it was up too you to make it work, after that it could be expected to run and be serivicable.

We have a problem, we expect perfection in things we toss out and that realy is nuts

[jimdunne]

My great respect is reserved for American things. Yes Doug, that is Canadian and American, and you know, even the British have had a great deal to do with high quality, long-lasting things.

Even to this day, we throw away a lot of what we think of as junk, that many Soviets would think of as very valuable. Cars, pickups, old generators, etc, etc.

Let me put it this way; Communism, Stalinism, Marxism, and Socialism stink, and have been responsible for a great deal of human suffering over many, many generations. Our fathers, and their fathers, and even their fathers, fought wars with countries which espoused those sorts of beliefs, and if they had not won, the world would not be a very pleasant place today.

And so far as global warming; if CO2 is so bad, let those who think it is, quit breathing first and set the example for the rest of us. I'll take warmer any day over another ice age, which is what it looks like we are heading toward. Come on, Sun spots!!

Fair warning; it is high time to put a few "acorns" away, and get real about alternative systems, and back-ups, etc.

This soul just bought a 4300 pound, 48 volt  GNB battery last week, which will last the rest of my life. Yes, it is time to put a few acorns away...

[t19]

Case in point I have two wonderful rifles.
A Swedish 6.5 Mauser, built in 1896... a work of art and craftmanship and polished in places that will never see the light of day unless stripped at the armouries

The other is a Chinese copy of an SKS... cruder than crude, sloppy and rough

Both will fire all day at the range, will kill what they are pointed at and accurate within their designs...


you could spend the money to make the SKS a better gun... but why bother.. will not be more reliable, shoot more accurate nor will it be worth any more

I see a Listeroid as an SKS

[Stan]

Jim...thanks for the chuckle....."And so far as global warming; if CO2 is so bad, let those who think it is, quit breathing first and set the example for the rest of us. I'll take warmer any day over another ice age"....If global warming just meant getting warmer, more days at the beach etc.  I'd be all in favour of it.   

Unfortunately even the most extreme right wing neo-cons like you've got down there such as Karl Rove, and John Bolton and up here we have the likes of Conrad Black (well, now he's yours) and Tom Flanigan know that it's much more than that.  It's multiple force 5 tornados, it's huge floods in the Mississippi valley every 5 years instead of every 100 years, it's 12 or 15 catagory 5 hurricanes every 2 or 3 years instead of every 50 years etc. etc.  It's extreme fluxuations in the worlds stock markets too. 

These guys are living on the hope of the "last man standing" philosophy, betting that N. Americans are rich and prepared enough so that WTSHTF they'll be the "last men standing" and can take over the world.

How's that for meglomania?

Stan

[Doug]

My great respect is reserved for American things. Yes Doug, that is Canadian and American, and you know, even the British have had a great deal to do with high quality, long-lasting things.

Even to this day, we throw away a lot of what we think of as junk, that many Soviets would think of as very valuable. Cars, pickups, old generators, etc, etc.

Let me put it this way; Communism, Stalinism, Marxism, and Socialism stink, and have been responsible for a great deal of human suffering over many, many generations. Our fathers, and their fathers, and even their fathers, fought wars with countries which espoused those sorts of beliefs, and if they had not won, the world would not be a very pleasant place today.

And so far as global warming; if CO2 is so bad, let those who think it is, quit breathing first and set the example for the rest of us. I'll take warmer any day over another ice age, which is what it looks like we are heading toward. Come on, Sun spots!!

Fair warning; it is high time to put a few "acorns" away, and get real about alternative systems, and back-ups, etc.

This soul just bought a 4300 pound, 48 volt  GNB battery last week, which will last the rest of my life. Yes, it is time to put a few acorns away...

.

Don't read things into that.
I Simply stated durable goods are not what they claim to be or used to be depending on your POV.
Soviet and Chinese stuff for domestic consumption was produced as cheap as possible to wear a long time. In the command ecconomy there was no room planned obscolence this was simply to foolish and expensive.
I can think of all kinds of things that were made here I like but notice the past tense.
I won't buy things made to look cool and pay a premium for " new and imporved " thats just dumb.

Onan made a fine engine and generator but it wouldn;t sell today because of weight.
A 1960's lawn boy is UGLY by todays standard ( to some )
I can think of all kids of products that were well made and quirky but we dont buy that way anymore and we are the foolish ones.

Don't mix up product with politics that was not my point or intenet

[rpg52]

Doug:  "Soviet and Chinese stuff for domestic consumption was produced as cheap as possible to wear a long time. In the command ecconomy there was no room planned obscolence this was simply to foolish and expensive."

For some reason this made me think immediately of my early '80's Troy-bilt rototiller.  I've seen it described as resembling a "Russian dump truck", and it does.  Heavy cast iron, built to be repaired.  Alas, the market didn't support Troy-bilt in the long run.  They still make stuff, but it seems like it is mostly disposable now. 

Another interesting evolution is a heavy mower, originally made by the Bachtold Brothers in the mid-west, then adopted by the DR company.  They promoted it for a while, then came out with their own line.  The original was made entirely of dimensional steel and bolts, with a minimum of manufactured parts.  DR has now replaced the original with its' own line, nearly entirely manufactured.  If you want parts, you have to buy from the factory.  Likely more versatile than the original, but much more expensive to repair. 

It is interesting that the command economy put the emphasis on cost and utility.  Western companies were (are?) forced to produce more crap that falls apart so you need to replace it.  Will the cost of fuel/shipping/manufacturing alter the dynamic if the economy built on cheap oil/cheap stuff is replaced by expensive oil?  I don't know the answer, but the next few years are going to be interesting.   
Ray