Trojan T-105 Battery

[Tom]

Also, I bought my first desulfator in '98 as .gov surplus. It came with detailed instructions and a 10 W Solar panel to power it. The instructions included pictures of installations on all kinds of tanks, troop transport trucks, missile launchers and all kinds of other neat looking vehicles. I'd imagine it is safe to assume the the military did a bit of research before spending our hard earned tax $ on snake oil. Then again maybe this line of reasoning defeats the whole point. 

[Tom]

Honest to God research, by a university no less for your review:

For the whole article, including a schematic to build your own see http://enpub.fulton.asu.edu/nsfreu/Gorlando/BatteryReport.htm

Gorlando Claw
Arizona State University
Research Experience for Undergraduates
July 20, 2001

Abstract

The research and study that was accomplished in the past two months has been on Deep Cycle Lead Acid batteries used in Arizona State University’s (ASU) electric vehicle (EV) fleet. This study entailed finding different methods in which these batteries could be made to last longer and thereby reduce the running costs of electric vehicle maintenance. ASU Fleet Services Maintenance Department estimates that 25 deep cycle lead acid batteries are considered to be dead or unusable. This is a lot of wasted resources especially if there are ways to extend the life of these batteries an extra year or more. Saving the Fleet Services a large amount of money.

During researching extending battery life several different methods came forth that are proven methods in which to extend the life of lead acid batteries. Three of the main things to help increase the life of lead acid batteries are 1) Equalize the batteries monthly, 2) Keep lead acid batteries well watered, 3) Don’t let the batteries sit around for long periods of time unused.

If there are old batteries that have been discarded for they are thought to be useless and dead. There is the device called a desulfator that will work to give your sulfated batteries extra life.

[mobile_bob]

Tom:

thanks for the link

although i sure would not use that report as support of much of anything
there is no testing protocol, no results, not much of anything to support an assertion
much less prove the concept.

Sandia Labs have done tons of research, on batteries of all types, double blind tests etc
by 2000-2001 they had not found clear and convincing evidence that desulfators worked at all.
although i have read this last year that they now conclude that there might possibly be a benefit in using one
on a heavily sulfated battery. (the operative words being "might" and "possibly")

what i would like to see is a study or test done wherein a large group of batteries are brought together for testing
all from the same installation, all the same type, age, size etc. 
run them down, let them set and harden the sulfation and then divide them up between to protocols
one being the standard the other being a desulfator

maybe 50 batteries each, and afterwards do a series of load and capacity tests on each group.

perhaps even have the test guys blind to which technology he is charging with.

the thing is, most folks that use a desulfator pay a much higher level of attention to the charging of their batteries
than to those with standard chargers ... generally.

usually a guy gets interested in a desulfator because he has a battery with a problem. so he is paying alot of attention to the battery.

according to sandia labs earlier tests on both technologies they conclude the same, more attention equals a better result
if you set the charge voltage sufficiently high enough it will break down the crystalized sulfation over time in a normal process.

anyway, thanks for the link
perhaps you or others have more links to university studies, independant lab studies or something like that
i would like to read them.

bob g

[Tom]

Actually, blush, I read the report after I posted it. They never actually used a desulfator.

Here is some "scientific proof" if you will http://www.pulsetech.net/PulseTechnology/PulseTechnology.html . There is also a paper by the SAE that discusses the benefits of the product. This is the one I use. I have 2 and just bought a 48 volt unit for my solar battery bank. http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-restoration/48-volt/PP48L.html With a $8k investment in batteries I kind of want them to last.

[sid]

how much difference are between lead acid batteries and do you get your moneys worth/a few years back I use to use a few areas to wait for my computer to up date in the truck// a lot of dead areas when they first came out/ one of the best places was a shopping center behind a serviece station/one day a battery truck came in/ the driver took a clip board and went in the station.10 minutes later he came back and went in the back of the truck and got down 10 batteries./// all the same with out labels.. after looking at the order on the clip board. he open a drawer and pulley out labels. he made a 36 month battery,a 48 month battery. a heavy duty battery etc,, all from the same batterys///so how can you get that many types from the same battery//and how can you say one is better than the other/who knows what you are testing///sid

[Doug]

Good story and good point I know a chain here that does basicaly the same thing.

You pay more for the premium because you are buying an extended warrenty that cover the replacement cost to a lesser degree as the battery ages.

So 6 years on your truck battery goes bad you get a %20 discount on replacement.
Its very good marketing.

[sid]

I have always said/ you never get a warrenty on a battery or tire.. they have to many ways of getting out of it..//sid

[biobill]

after looking at the order on the clip board. he open a drawer and pulley out labels. he made a 36 month battery,a 48 month battery. a heavy duty battery etc,, all from the same batterys

 no kidding....and to think I always buy the "premium" thinking of wintertime starting. I think I'll bring a scale with me next time - see if one has more lead than the other

[mobile_bob]

interstate battery company here in the states got into a snap doing that sort of thing
they would ask you what quality of battery you wanted , 3 year, 4 year etc and then apply a sticker to a battery and then
sell it to you.
same battery no matter what you wanted, different price and different warranty

same goes for bauch and lamb contact lenses,
years ago you paid maybe 200 bucks for a set of extended wear lens and 20 bucks for 6 pairs of daily wear lenses
turns out they were the same lenses coming off the same assembly line.

when it comes to true deep cycle batteries the way i figure it is based on weight
hopefully the heavier battery has more lead? hopefully they last as long as the manufacture claims they will if properly cared for.

Tom:
i got no issue with you wanting to get maximum life out of your investment. you have a very significant investment in your set
and i don't blame you a bit for doing all you can to get the maximum return on your investment.

hopefully the desulfator does what is claimed and you get a very long life out of them.

i just don't think i am ready to attach a desulfator to my bank as of yet
i would like to see some really good independant testing done first, and second
i would like to see an engineering paper on how they specifically work, pro's and con's
that sort of thing.

i am always suspect of any manufactures claims about their products especially if their results are substantially different
than what other test facilities have come to.

until that day comes i think i will stick with the recommendations of sandia labs, and manufactures such as rolls/surrette
along with what is published by other manufactures of charge controller such as amplepower, balmar and xantrex
(which btw they all agree on proper charging regime's almost to the letter)

one of my biggest complaints with some of the desulfator manufactures claims and white papers
is the fact that they allude to sulfation as being an evil that one must have their product in order to reverse.
some of which, (or in my experience) most of which never explain to a battery user that sulfation is a normal process in a battery
while it is being discharged. Sulfation is normal and unavoidable, it is simply part of the process or chemistry of a battery
without it a battery could not function.  what is bad is sulfation that has been allowed to sit and harden or crystallize as we know.


again for the record
i have little doubt that an electronic desulfator works on some heavily sulfated batteries
my hope is that i don't ever allow my batteries to ever get to that poor of a condition so as to need
to go to a desulfator.



bob g

[horsefly76]

The OP took a used set that were in questionable shape and did an equalization charge overnight and got the specific gravity
up to 1300 (which is quite high) but likely he has got those batteries up to a good condition i would say

Bob here is what I used. I straight from Trojan's web site. I put the batteries in 12 volt banks and charged at 15.5 volts @ 30 amps to get a fair amount of bubbles.

After a 14 hour period of rest I retested s.g. and had around 1.300 (Trojan says 1.277 for a good one) my testers top 2 marks are 1.275 and 1.300 my readings were just below the 1.300 mark.

I have been the only person to service these battery's the last 1 3/4 years

                                                                                                              (Trojan's info)
Visual inspection alone is not sufficient to determine the overall health of the battery. Both open-circuit voltage and specific gravity readings can give a good indication of the battery's charge level, age, and health. Routine voltage and gravity checks will not only show the state of charge but also help spot signs of improper care, such as undercharging and over-watering, and possibly even locate a bad or weak battery. The following steps outline how to properly perform routine voltage and specific gravity testing on batteries.

I. Specific Gravity Test
(Flooded batteries only)

1. Do not add water at this time.

2. Fill and drain the hydrometer 2 to 4 times before pulling out a sample.

3. There should be enough sample electrolyte in the hydrometer to completely support the float.

4. Take a reading, record it, and return the electrolyte back to the cell.

5. To check another cell, repeat the 3 steps above.

6. Check all cells in the battery.

7. Replace the vent caps and wipe off any electrolyte that might have been spilled.

8. Correct the readings to 80o F:

    * Add .004 to readings for every 10o above 80o F
    * Subtract .004 for every 10o below 80o F.

9. Compare the readings.

10. Check the state of charge using Table 1.

The readings should be at or above the factory specification of 1.277 +/- .007. If any specific gravity readings register low, then follow the steps below.

1. Check and record voltage level(s).

2. Put battery(s) on a complete charge.

3. Take specific gravity readings again.

If any specific gravity readings still register low then follow the steps below.

1. Check voltage level(s).

2. Perform equalization charge. Refer to the Equalizing section for the proper procedure.

3. Take specific gravity readings again.

If any specific gravity reading still registers lower than the factory specification of 1.277+/- .007 then one or more of the following conditions may exist:

1. The battery is old and approaching the end of its life.

2. The battery was left in a state of discharge too long.

3. Electrolyte was lost due to spillage or overflow.

4. A weak or bad cell is developing.

5. Battery was watered excessively previous to testing.

Batteries in conditions 1 - 4 should be taken to a specialist for further evaluation or retired from service.

II. Open-Circuit Voltage Test
For accurate voltage readings, batteries must remain idle (no charging, no discharging) for at least 6 hrs, preferably 24 hrs.

1. Disconnect all loads from the batteries.

2. Measure the voltage using a DC voltmeter.

3. Check the state of charge with Table 1.

4. Charge the battery if it registers 0% to 70% charged.

If battery registers below the Table 1 values, the following conditions may exist:

1. The battery was left in a state of discharge too long.

2. The battery has a bad cell.

Batteries in these conditions should be taken to a specialist for further evaluation or retired from service.