Puppeteer

Author Topic: Stirling engine concept  (Read 12550 times)

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Stirling engine concept
« on: June 12, 2008, 01:45:16 PM »
Been thinking for awhile about diesel versus gas versus steam engine versus stirling.........

I stumbled over this link, a 5HP stirling engine built in 1895, kinda fascinating. I wonder how well it would work if you used this concept and fed it 1000ºF temperatures, and then just kept the exhaust at 200 or so. That would still be high enough for the hot water supply and space heating, in effect you'd be using all the heat and letting none go to waste, (once it hits the engine) not to mention the fact that almost any combustible material could be used. It would probably be quiet enough to put in the basement without any soundproofing too.....

Interesting thoughts.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBZDJn6B0cs

EDIT: modified link
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 12:30:26 PM by mkdutchman »

Florida Cracker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 01:43:53 PM »
I have been interested in building one for some time.  Kind of like the rotary design...seems more efficient to have the displacer as part of the crankshaft instead of creating drag. First on the list is to get my Lister set up. I have 4 air cooled ST1's sitting, waiting, calling to me...LOL

clytle374

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 12:12:18 AM »
Looks really nice.  With only 21 known in existence I doubt I'll find one in my price range.

I really need to get back to work on my little engine.  Need a barrel lap to finish the cylinder.

mkdutchman-  I have been kicking around the same idea for about 3 years.  Building a wood gas generator to run a Stirling.  Maybe get enough power to run the heaters and other stuff in a emergency.   Might work out to be free power with how inefficient our wood boiler is.   Thanks for posting that.  A video of things often help me with the finance committee. ;)

clytle374

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 04:29:52 AM »
One more thing:  Where did you get the 5 HP info?  I found old advertisement on a similar sized engine that only had .4 HP.

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 12:35:10 PM »
One more thing:  Where did you get the 5 HP info?  I found old advertisement on a similar sized engine that only had .4 HP.


You know, I'm not even sure. I almost sure I saw it somewhere on the description, or the guy in the video says it's 5HP but now I can't find it.

EDIT: Actually I can't find it anywhere.  :P So I don't know what the horsepower rating is at all.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 07:44:19 PM by mkdutchman »

Flyingpony

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 02:01:09 AM »
Do you think an engine like that would run off a solar hot water panel?

If it generates a few hp, then one could use that instead of solar panels and it'll be more cost effective.

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 12:02:52 PM »
Supposedly it runs off any heat source

What if you focused sunlight on the hot end, it would probably go up to what, a 1000F I would think. The cold end you could keep at say, 200F or so, and use for hot water and space heating. You would have zero heat going to waste, other than frictional losses......This explains the Stirling concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

Here are two applications of the concept

clytle374

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 12:34:00 PM »
I don't think you would get water hot enough, It would mostly like need to be high pressure steam.   You might get one to run with hot water, But not enough to produce any power.  They have little engines that will run off a hot cup of coffee.   Some can run off the heat of your hand.  But all of the low temperature ones I have seen are doing good just to run and never produce power.  Thats why I really wanted to verify the 5 HP.   :(

Another related thought I have kicked around:  Use wood gas and an O2 generator for a hotter more concentrated flame to the engine.  Not heating up all the nitrogen in the air should add efficiency also. 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 12:37:46 PM by clytle374 »

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 01:20:09 PM »
I don't think you would get water hot enough, It would mostly like need to be high pressure steam.   You might get one to run with hot water, But not enough to produce any power.  They have little engines that will run off a hot cup of coffee.   Some can run off the heat of your hand.  But all of the low temperature ones I have seen are doing good just to run and never produce power.  Thats why I really wanted to verify the 5 HP.   :(

Another related thought I have kicked around:  Use wood gas and an O2 generator for a hotter more concentrated flame to the engine.  Not heating up all the nitrogen in the air should add efficiency also. 

I saw a lot of them on youtube also, I always thought they were just a scientific curiosity. But check out this quote from wiki (from the link above)

"In the conversion of heat into mechanical work, the Stirling engine has the potential to achieve the highest efficiency of any real heat engine. It can perform theoretically up to the full Carnot efficiency, though in practice this is limited. The practical limitations are the non-ideal properties of the working gas, and the engine material properties such as friction, thermal conductivity, tensile strength, creep, rupture strength, and melting point. The Stirling engine can run on any heat source, including chemical, solar, geothermal........."

The efficiency of the typical listeroid is what, 20 to 30 per cent? I know I saw a figure somewhere but can't remember exactly what it was. This was the only thing I could find on wiki on real world efficiency numbers for the stirling

"Compared to the idealized cycle, the efficiency of a real engine is reduced by irreversibilities, friction, and the loss of short-circuit conducted heat, so that the overall efficiency is often only about half of the ideal (Carnot) efficiency"

which would come to about 30%, correct?


And this

"To summarize, the Stirling engine uses the temperature difference between its hot end and cold end to establish a cycle of a fixed mass of gas, heated and expanded, and cooled and compressed, thus converting thermal energy into mechanical energy. The greater the temperature difference between the hot and cold sources, the greater the thermal efficiency. The maximum theoretical efficiency is equivalent to the Carnot cycle, however the efficiency of real engines is only a fraction of this value, even in highly optimized engines"

In other words it runs on the temperature difference between the two ends. The reason I threw the 1000F/200F question in is because if you had 1000F going in (easily achievable with sunlight) and all your waste heat at 200F, the coolant temperature would be hot enough to still be useful. Granted, you'd lose some efficency but if you'd send all the energy through the stirling first, and then use the rest in a CHP setup, a couple % difference in efficiency wouldn't matter all that much.

I thought about the O2 generator already too, around here WMO would be used instead of wood and temps on that would go up to 1000F+ I would think....especially if you used one of these burners and used O2 instead of air

check out the babington burner, very simple design, clean burning, might be some possibilities there........
http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/babington/default.htm
http://www.aipengineering.com/babington/Babington_Oil_Burner_HOWTO.html
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 01:26:52 PM by mkdutchman »

clytle374

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 05:37:32 PM »
I think if you use a O2 generator 1000F will be no problem. Melting things will be.

I have kicked around hte solar idea also, I haven't come up with a good way to get the heat to the engine.   Tracking mirrors is about the only option. 

The real problem isn't efficiency, It is size vs power.  Thats why I got so excited by the 5HP number.  For 5 HP I would build one. 

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 06:58:45 PM »
I think if you use a O2 generator 1000F will be no problem. Melting things will be.

I have kicked around hte solar idea also, I haven't come up with a good way to get the heat to the engine.   Tracking mirrors is about the only option. 

The real problem isn't efficiency, It is size vs power.  Thats why I got so excited by the 5HP number.  For 5 HP I would build one. 
Melting things might be a problem at that temperature, and ditto on the mirrors, I couldn't think of anything else either

As for the 5HP number I was sure I saw it somewhere, and today I found it, it's not the engine in the video, but another one somewhat similar. This is the front cover of the book written by the guy who built one under some pretty primitive conditions in Bangladesh, right at the border of...................India


and here's a link to the book itself
http://www.stirlingengine.com/ecommerce/product.tcl?usca_p=t&product_id=84

here's chapter 6 in the book, it has a lot of intriguing photos and "how I did it" stuff
http://www.stirlingengine.com/download/lockwood_chpt6.pdf

I wonder if Atul Patel would be interested in building a Stirling engine.......

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 10:21:23 PM »
Ah, here's what I was looking for...........someone who actually built one himself



check this out, all of 2.5 horse, and homemade to boot
http://starspin.com/stirlings/jimd6.html

and look at all the stirlings he made
http://www.starspin.com/stirlings/pictures.html
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 10:31:06 PM by mkdutchman »

clytle374

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 02:06:47 AM »
Now that is wonderful information. 

M61hops

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 04:02:33 AM »
Great info guys!  Notice the size of the piston and displacer to make 5 HP !  I think the Phillips generator produced about 400 watts and was made in 1938 or so.  I've always wanted to make my own sterling engine but I think the size of my tools would limit me to an engine of about 1 horsepower.  Thanks guys for posting the info !     Leland






I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

mkdutchman

  • mkdutchman at gmail dot com
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
    • View Profile
Re: Stirling engine concept
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 12:08:09 PM »
Did you notice the one in the picture is for sale?  ;D