Author Topic: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem  (Read 11889 times)

Dusty

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I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« on: June 10, 2008, 05:28:52 AM »
I spent most of the day Sunday reading the forums here and I came across the Idler Gear problem.  Sure enough I checked my new Omega 10/1 roid and I have the famous bad idler gear problem.  This certainly needs to be fixed and I'll do more research and figure this mess out.  I can have the offset shaft made up no problem.  I haven't ran the motor yet and I'm kind of glad as I would not want to have had a problem later on.  I made a video and it shows the weird wiggle this gear is doing: http://s279.photobucket.com/albums/kk157/Dustylister/alternator/Lister%20internals%20video/ .  The gear rocks on the shaft, kind of hard to explain but I think the video shows what is going on.

Before I bought this engine I read if you are not a "do it yourself" kind of a guy, move along and find another project.  I can believe it now.  Believe me, this is exactly the type of project I can handle and actually enjoy messing around with this thing already. 

Mark
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 05:38:04 AM by Dusty »

Tom

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 04:50:16 PM »
My original gear fits tight on the shaft and wiggles too. It was bored at an angle to the face. I could see the wear pattern on the teeth moving from the left to the right and then back again. The new bronze gear runs much truer. I think the added the slop to the gear train to allow this poor workmanship function, at least for a little while.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

MacGyver

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »
Yeah, the idler gear on my 6/1 wobbled like that too, AND it had a metric shitload of backlash between the gears also. The original bolt was clearly too small in diameter to fit the gear correctly.

I installed one of XYZER's offset idler bolts which fixed both problems.
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

ronmar

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 11:04:27 PM »
Looks like the idler gear bore is either too large or the pinion is too small.  That pinion is also probably dry, so that would make the movement a little more apparent.  I would reccomend you replace both, and sub a bronze idler gear and an offset pinion bolt to close up the backlash.  the beauty of a bronze gear is that it is a little more sacrificial and if the alignment is close, it will wear to fit without doing as much damage to the cam or crank gear.  If it has a problem and fails, it is also less likley to do damage to the other gears and is far easier to replace than either of the other gears...

You are going to disassemble the engine and look for sand aren't you?  Here are a few quick checks for you to do.  Reach your hand down into that access hole you showed in your video and into the oil sump compartment section that protrudes from the case(your oil drain plug might be located there?).  Run your hand along the roof of that tip-out section and see what you feel or what can come loose.  That is one of the more difficult places to get to to clean properly and to paint properly.  That is where I found most of my sand inside the case.  I also found NO paint there when I tore mine down.
Another easy check is to remove the rod bearing cap and inspect the bearing.  If it has scratches, those were most likley caused by sand raining down out of the piston and flowing with the splashed oil into the rod bearing during the test run at the factory.  You can clean it all out now, or repair/replace the parts that it wipes out later...

The difference in flywheel ring you noted in your video could indicate a casting flaw, or at least a difference in the castings. It could also indicate a difference in the way the keys are seated attaching the flywheel to the shaft.  I wouldn't expect them to be exactly the same, but the significant thing about the ring test is that the tone persists.  In a quiet room, the ring tone should go on for 10-15 seconds before you can't hear it anymore, and it should be real difficult to determine when exactly it quits.  When I first rang my flywheels, they too were different tones, but one was significantly shorter than the other.  Upon further examination, I found a casting flaw/void inside that hub where the shaft goes.  The hole I found was about the size of a dime, but the void when probed with a wire appeared to be about the size of a quarter sized sphere(about the size of my thumb).  The dealer replaced the wheel.  The new wheel is still a different tone, but the tone is pure and the duration is within a second of the other wheel as gauged by my ageing noise damaged ears:)  The important thing is also to do this frequently enough to establish a baseline and hopefully be able to detect any significant changes in the future.  To this end it might be a good idea to describe the ring tone and duration in your engine log.

Good luck             
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

LincTex

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 08:32:50 AM »
I installed one of XYZER's offset idler bolts which fixed both problems.

I would like a couple of these for my Metro 6-1's - do you have to PM him or does he offer them on a personal website somewhere?

Blueflame

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 02:35:28 PM »
Of all the problems people have with listeroids this one worrys me the most on my PS 6-1. It doesnt wobble but does slide in and out some.  I noticed th idler has higher wear on parts of it than other parts. I sometimes think the motor is knocking louder than usual and will check it and it been ok. Its an iron gear and would probably do major destruction if teeth broke off. Brian

Blueflame

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 02:37:31 PM »
Of all the problems people have with listeroids this one worrys me the most on my PS 6-1. It doesnt wobble but does slide in and out some.  I noticed th idler has higher wear on parts of it than other parts. I sometimes think the motor is knocking louder than usual and will check it and it been ok. Its an iron gear and would probably do major destruction if teeth broke off. Brian

Blueflame

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 02:38:04 PM »
Of all the problems people have with listeroids this one worrys me the most on my PS 6-1. It doesnt wobble but does slide in and out some.  I noticed th idler has higher wear on parts of it than other parts. I sometimes think the motor is knocking louder than usual and will check it and it been ok. Its an iron gear and would probably do major destruction if teeth broke off. Brian

Dusty

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2008, 03:51:05 AM »
I see some great answers!  Someday when I know more about these listors I can return some of my new knowledge to other new guys, thanks.  I have ordered my new bronze idler gear and have a nice clean area of my shop all set up to work on the engine.  I can't wait.

Mark

LincTex

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 07:01:54 PM »
I have ordered my new bronze idler gear

who from and how much?

Dusty

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 11:18:29 PM »
The place is ordered it from is http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/lister_parts.asp .  It was $76.95 + shipping.  There may be other places that sell the gear, but I am not aware of them. 

Dusty

billswan

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 01:35:28 PM »
The place is ordered it from is http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/lister_parts.asp .  It was $76.95 + shipping.  There may be other places that sell the gear, but I am not aware of them. 

Dusty
Hello dusty

Have you received your gear yet?  Is it good quality ? Have you had time to install it? Did it fix the problem?
Looks like the engine i have may need one also!!!!!!!!
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

blacksea7

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 12:04:37 AM »
Would one of you gentlemen provide me with a picture of the gear and shaft? I've an idea but I need to see what's happening first.

Bill

billswan

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 04:16:32 AM »
Would one of you gentlemen provide me with a picture of the gear and shaft? I've an idea but I need to see what's happening first.

Bill
Hello blacksea7
Can you play the video that dusty put up in his first post in this thread?
Also try going to the link that dusty put up in his last post, centralmainediesel, then look down the list and locate the bronze bear and the pin it runs on. Good luck billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

oliver90owner

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Re: I'm now infected with the Idler gear problem
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 07:19:38 AM »
I just looked at the video.  It is rubbish!!.  Not the video , but the gear.  If that is 'standard', no wonder they fail in short time!!  A simple case of poor workmanship and no quality control.

Your problem seems to be a case of having to find how much offset you need to get the correct back-lash in the gear.  I am pleased that  XYZER's  fix works, but boring the hole in the right placement and adhering to correct tolerances (they are not exactly tight by modern standards) must be a simpler way to go. 

I would like to know how much each engine deviates from spec - Dusty, can you supply numbers - as your engine has not even run? 

If you are all investing another ten percent in parts for your engines  even before running them, that is crazy.  The proper fix should have cost peanuts. Even the correct XYZER replacement should be used, but maybe it doesn't even need to be that close to ideal, to be able to run for years and years with no further bother......

We used to use a rule of tens ''for every pound it cost at the design stage, it  cost 10 at the supply, cost 100 at the construction and a costs 1000 to fix when the plant is running (or stopped as the case may well be).

Regards, RAB