HYBRID DIESEL-ELECTRIC 6/1 AND 14/1

[diesel guy]

I am building a 6/1 with a 7.5 KW generator head operate at 450 rpm. We have a 1000 amp/hr Surretts/Rolls 48 volt battery bank in 24-2 volt cells. The inverters are dual 5548 Trace rated at 11 KW at 240 volts continuous. The inverters charge rate will be set at 6 amps at 120 volts each, a constant 1500 watt load on the generator and the coolant will also be pumped into the home. The 6/1 will be started in the morning and shut down at night or ran 24/7.

I'm going to operate a 14/1at 650 RPM with a 10 KW generator head, we are working on attaching a 4 HP 48 volt permanent magnet 1800 RPM motor to the input shaft of the 1800 RPM generator head. When the generator starts to fall below the rated speed by overloading the 14/1, the electric motor will start to assist the engine directly, powered by the battery bank. This system should be able to maintain approximately 6.5 + KW continuous. When the electrical load is reduced, the motor will begin to operate like a generator to recharge the battery bank for the next time full power is needed. These both systems although complexly different, function similar to a hybrid vehicle to maximize fuel efficiency. The Hybrid 14/1 is a backup system incase the Hybrid 6/1 fails or needs attention. When it's done I'll update.

I would like to thank Joel and George for their assistance and guidance on my project. They have MY business for life, when someone threats you right you don’t look elsewhere.

[BobH]

Very neat system.  I have a simular system on a off grid location. I use 1000 watts of solar to run 1000 watts of batteries (gell cells) that inturn operate 2 stacked Outback 3524 inverters (240 volts) I use a 15kw perkins generator to back the system up that has auto start should the batteries drop below 22 volts. To back that up I use a 12/2 as a lowtec option should everything dies. Like you I have had great luck with Joel and George.

Keep me posted on the electric motor. haven't heard of that before.

BH

[trigzy]

   Nice system, but what bank did you hold up to get the cash for those inverters and batteries 

I'm just wondering, wouldn't it be (easier/nicer/better/different) to use a non-PM motor so that you could adjust the field and FORCE the best generating/motor efficency out of that 48V motor?

Steve

[BobH]

trigzy:
The problem is that it is recreational property and no one is there most of the time. If I were there I would have 2 12/2's running alternating  full time, much cheeper. Thje system was about $25k, to bring the grid in was $250k. As it is right now solar runs the place when no one is there and the generator runs when people over load the system, washers, dryers, heaters, tv etc. Right now it costs about $500/yr to run the entire place.

Explain the 48 volt motor, that is new to me, sounds interesting.

BH

[Tom]

DG,

Sounds like a great setup you are building! I'm doing something similar with the inverters, batteries and 6/1 with 5kw head. However I am curious as to why you need to do the motor setup on the 14/1?

Trigzy,

If DG uses a mppt charge controller it will extract the most power out of that PM motor. No additional regulation required.

[trigzy]

Tom,
      The charge controller is fine, but then you have to bypass it when the speed falls to use it as a motor again.

BobH,
        This applies to most motors, AC or DC.  I'll avoid talking about power factor/watts/bhp/torque and I'll be more generic and use the term "energy".  When you first connect an electric motor, it consumes energy and begins to spin, that part is pretty obvious.   But if your "load" (whatever you have hooked up to that motor) begins to try and turn the motor faster than it's already turning, there is a point where that motor starts to generate more power than it consumes.  If attached to batteries, that energy would go in to charging the batteries.

The PM motor is the best for simplicity of design, but my concerns lay in not being able to "tweak" it (because you cant adjust the magnetic feild of a PM motor)  so you might not get much generation out of it unless your batteries are near dead.  And if your batteries are really dead, AND your lister is overloaded by your 120V head, the PM motor will pull the Lister down even more.

Still, it's a neat project and a really good idea, those are just things that "could" go wrong......hopefuly it just works nicely.

Steve

[rgroves]

[quote author=Tom link=topic=352.msg4202#msg4202 date=1142528120

Trigzy,

If DG uses a mppt charge controller it will extract the most power out of that PM motor. No additional regulation required.

Tom, I've been wondering about that too.  Outback makes a great MPPT charge controller that can take a wide range of input voltages, but they state that the controller only can be used with PV inputs.  I can't imagine why that would make a difference -- but I'd like to use one with a higher voltage from a PM motor driven by one of my MiniPetters, charging my 24 volt battery pack.

Thanks

Russell

[diesel guy]

The reasoning behind these hybrid configurations is to have high output capability at the same time minimizing fuel consumption. We prototyped and tested many technologies in the past due to the business were in, we sell Fallout Shelters/Safe Rooms.
www.northeastsheltersystems.com

Over the years we found that simplicity and redundancy is imperative for survival. The backup 14/1 - electric motor design allows use of the battery bank and is resilient from a HAEMP (High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse) compared to the highly vulnerable 6/1 - INVERTER design. Take a look at my web site, it will show the radius of such a device:
EMP Protection Electromagnetic Pulse

We want to offer our customers a reliable and durable power system that can be repaired by almost anyone in time of crisis. This is why we are leaning towards the proven old technology. We are also focusing on just the 6/1 and 14/1 at low speeds not the twins and the singles at high speeds. The Idler gear is the weak link in these engines and all ours will have Georges bronze gear installed. Lister Type Gears

The twins gears have twice the stress load per given speed than the singles, so we use a Hybrid design to match the twins high output capability for short periods of time all while maintaining maximum durability from the low speed prepped singles. Also with a light load applied the twin could "wet stack". Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the big twins but they consume more fuel and in our application the gas stations might not be open for business for refueling.

Regards
Diesel Guy

[GuyFawkes]

wow, EMP protection for your SUV

gotta laugh

[jimmer]

The reasoning behind these hybrid configurations is to have high output capability at the same time minimizing fuel consumption. We prototyped and tested many technologies in the past due to the business were in, we sell Fallout Shelters/Safe Rooms.
www.northeastsheltersystems.com

Over the years we found that simplicity and redundancy is imperative for survival. The backup 14/1 - electric motor design allows use of the battery bank and is resilient from a HAEMP (High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse) compared to the highly vulnerable 6/1 - INVERTER design. Take a look at my web site, it will show the radius of such a device:
EMP Protection Electromagnetic Pulse

We want to offer our customers a reliable and durable power system that can be repaired by almost anyone in time of crisis. This is why we are leaning towards the proven old technology. We are also focusing on just the 6/1 and 14/1 at low speeds not the twins and the singles at high speeds. The Idler gear is the weak link in these engines and all ours will have Georges bronze gear installed. Lister Type Gears

The twins gears have twice the stress load per given speed than the singles, so we use a Hybrid design to match the twins high output capability for short periods of time all while maintaining maximum durability from the low speed prepped singles. Also with a light load applied the twin could "wet stack". Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the big twins but they consume more fuel and in our application the gas stations might not be open for business for refueling.

Regards
Diesel Guy

Man; I'm confused.

How is this sales pitch different than the ones that got people chased off the forum?

jim

[diesel guy]

I’m not trying to sell anything. I’m explaining the mindset of my Hybrid design. We are over booked as it is and are not looking for cheap advertisement.

Regards,
Diesel Guy

[Tom]

A DG, now I understand it seems we WSN's flock together don't we.  It still seems to me that is a lot of extra complexity and cost for what you gain. More flywheel weight would seem to have the desired effect. In all my generator use starting loads seems to be the biggest issue. The older Onan generator heads had an AC and DC winding for starting. One of these, modified for the desired voltage, might also work with out the extra pulleys and belt. Any way sounds like you are having fun.

[wldhoss]

Diesel Guy,  Thanks for the informative posts. I would like to hear your thoughts on improving the dependability of the singles. Regards, JP

[Halfnuts]

I don't buy into the survivalist thing, but doing more with less is moving in the right direction.  I'm more afraid of my government than any stinkin' rag-head with a grenade.

[cujet]

Diesel guy. I see you mention 450RPM for the 6/1. Have you been able to determine that there is enough oil flow around the engine internals to properly lube the engine?

From what I can tell, very low RPM's result in no oil flow and I would guess very short engine life.

Chris