Author Topic: Balancing out the Bounce---  (Read 78907 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2006, 06:17:41 PM »
truck wheels use the adhesive backed stick on weights too at least on the aluminum wheels

i would think they would work well and can be stacked in layers if needed.

if applied to the inner face of the flywheel they will never come off on their own.

bob g
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Ironworks

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2006, 06:25:43 PM »
Nice....I imagine they will be heavier (if needed) then the motorcycle rim weights.

Mr X

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2006, 06:47:05 PM »
The problem with stick on weights is this system of ballance is trial and error I think I started and stoped my roid 6-7 times . Another consideration is weight 3"  with 1/4 x 1 bolts channel weighs 7.6  oz. I have no clue what incruments these stick on weights come in but what ever u can make work.

I was thinking bout the roids without ruber and mounted firmly. You could loosen off the moorings and place rubber feet under your frame and then it my learch enough to do the chalk test. Just a thought I aint no expert just stumbeled onto somthing that may help.

A humourus note, I had a placer claim so I built myself a small wash plant. Thinking I was smart I welded a head off a plate tamper on my plant , this would create vibration and help move the gravel through the plant. When I fired it up it vibrated so much it broke moste of the welds on the wash plant. Thats what vibration dose. so evean though a roid is heavier then a dead priest what is the long term effect of vibration.

Greg
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 06:55:58 PM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

hotater

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2006, 07:14:07 PM »
Those stick-on weights are $20 a pound!!  I priced them last year.

This balancing method is the same as centering work in a 4 jaw chuck and essentially the same as I've used on the mini-Petters.  The PROBLEM as I see it is adding a pound or of weight to one or two spokes of a, most likely, pourous casting.

I've balanced two MP engines with the same method, (felt tip pen works too) but their flywheels are solid and without the sponge look of my FuKing engine.

My only point is this:  the engine is most likely out of balance 'all over' rather than in one spot.  The "heavy spot" located on a flywheel is the center of a shortage of weight, not the site of it. 

I bolted mine down solid and solved the problem.

Besides, with mine, since the floor is stable to the engine but both jump up and down in relation to the world, I'd have to tie the chalk onto a broom stick and set the bucket on the ground outside to brace it on!   ;D ;D
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2006, 07:19:03 PM »
Thats what vibration dose. so evean though a roid is heavier then a dead priest what is the long term effect of vibration.

Greg

depnds on the "vibration", which is an inexact description.

most of the time on slow speed diesels like these bad vibes take out the weakest part, and that usually means cracking the crank just to one side of the big end.

I've been thinking the past week about crack testing for the diy'er

the best one I can come up with is magnetic testing, I thought about writing it up, but did a google and found a better text, the one we used to use used the flourescent dyed iron dust.

Magnetic Particle Inspection
How does it work?
Magnetic particle inspection (MPI) is used for the detection of surface and near-surface flaws in ferromagnetic materials. A magnetic field is applied to the specimen, either locally or overall, using a permanent magnet, electromagnet, flexible cables or hand-held prods. If the material is sound, most of the magnetic flux is concentrated below the material's surface. However, if a flaw is present, such that it interacts with the magnetic field, the flux is distorted locally and 'leaks' from the surface of the specimen in the region of the flaw. Fine magnetic particles, applied to the surface of the specimen, are attracted to the area of flux leakage, creating a visible indication of the flaw. The materials commonly used for this purpose are black iron particles and red or yellow iron oxides. In some cases, the iron particles are coated with a fluorescent material enabling them to be viewed under a UV lamp in darkened conditions.

Magnetic particles are usually applied as a suspension in water or paraffin. This enables the particles to flow over the surface and to migrate to any flaws. On hot surfaces, or where contamination is a concern, dry powders may be used as an alternative to wet inks. On dark surfaces, a thin layer of white paint is usually applied, to increase the contrast between the background and the black magnetic particles. The most sensitive technique, however, is to use fluorescent particles viewed under UV (black) light.

MPI is particularly sensitive to surface-breaking or near-surface cracks, even if the crack opening is very narrow. However, if the crack runs parallel to the magnetic field, there is little disturbance to the magnetic field and it is unlikely that the crack will be detected. For this reason it is recommended that the inspection surface is magnetised in two directions at 90° to each other. Alternatively, techniques using swinging or rotating magnetic fields can be used to ensure that all orientations of crack are detectable.

The method of magnetisation depends on the geometry of the component and whether or not all or only part of the specimen is to be magnetised. Permanent magnets are attractive for on-site inspection, as they do not need a power supply. However, they tend only to be used to examine relatively small areas and have to be pulled from the test surface. Despite needing their own power supply, electromagnets (yokes) find widespread application. Their main attraction is that they are easy to remove (once the current has been switched off) and that the strength of the magnetic field can be varied. For example, an AC electromagnet can be used to concentrate the field at the surface where it is needed. Hand-held electrical prods are useful in confined spaces. However, they suffer two major disadvantages that can rule out their use altogether. Firstly, arc strikes can occur at the prod contact points and these can damage the specimen surface. Secondly, because the particles must be applied when the current is on, the inspection becomes a two-man operation. Bench units are fixed installations used to test large numbers of manufactured specimens of various sizes. The electrical components of a mobile unit (as described above) are incorporated in the bench unit making testing more rapid, convenient and efficient.

In some cases, MPI can leave residual fields which subsequently interfere with welding repairs. These can be removed by slowly wiping the surface with an energised AC yoke.
What will it find?
MPI is used to detect surface-breaking and near-surface flaws in ferromagnetic materials. It cannot, however, be used to detect deeply embedded flaws, nor can it be used on non-ferromagnetic materials, such as aluminium, copper or austenitic stainless steel.
Where is it used?
MPI is often used to look for cracking at welded joints and in areas identified as being susceptible to environmental cracking (e.g. stress corrosion cracking or hydrogen induced cracking), fatigue cracking or creep cracking. Wet fluorescent MPI finds widespread use in looking for environmental damage on the inside of vessels. Further information on each of these cracking mechanisms and their significance in piping systems is given in API 570.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2006, 07:49:26 PM »
Thanks, Guy---

That's surprisingly similar to the centuries old blacksmith trick of scattering iron filings over a forge weld to be tested and tapping the part with a hammer. It does the same thing.
I've used dust from under the belt grinder and WD-40 with a permanent magnet for testing gun parts for 40 years.....stick the magnet on the part (I use the magnetized tip of a socket screwdriver, it don't take much), spray the part with WD-40 and sprinkle in the steel dust.  You'll see the cracks/faults/bad welds/solder voids and pits nearly instantly.  Another way is to wipe the part with carbon paper and tap with a screwdriver handle.   (I don't know why, but it does) That's for very small parts.
Parts soaked in gasoline will weep gas from any cracks after the rest has dried...some guys mix India ink with the gas to make it show up better....some spray the part with foot powder after the gas treatment.  Cracks show up as dark lines in the white powder.

Some of us tap on flywheels with a hammer handle once a day....just because I love the ring it makes, and as long as it rings I'll wait on the other test.   ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Halfnuts

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2006, 09:55:10 PM »
Sort of like checking out a grinding wheel.  Tap it (gently!) and if it rings, it's good.  If it makes a "thunk" sound, it's cracked.

Halfnuts

Mr X

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #112 on: April 15, 2006, 04:25:58 PM »
I Im curious if any roid owners had the balls to try to lessen the leap. If so did it work.
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Copybell

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #113 on: April 15, 2006, 05:21:28 PM »
Mr. X,
     I did a static balance on my 6/1 Listeroid.  It went from chasing me around the yard to such a smooth runner that I don't have the small frame that the engine and generator is bolted to, bolted down.  The frame sits on a 1/2" thick rubber mat and doesn't walk around.  I am happy to supply you with the details of balancing if you so desire.

Best regards,
Copybell
Omega brand 6/1
Fuking brand 6/1
Satyajeet brand 20/1
Mini Petter

Mr X

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2006, 12:07:10 AM »
C. Bell  Yah Id be interisted in hearing how u ballanced your roid

Greg
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Geno

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2006, 11:58:26 AM »
Copybell, I'd like to hear how you did it too.
Thanks, Geno

Copybell

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2006, 05:23:11 PM »
Geno,
    I am happy to make a copy of the balancing paper I wrote for George Breckenridge, however I cannot figure out how to copy it to this forum.  I am not a great typist and do not want to have to re-type it into a reply.  I know how to insert a file into an E-mail however I do not have your address.  Any ideas?

Best regards,
Copybell
Omega brand 6/1
Fuking brand 6/1
Satyajeet brand 20/1
Mini Petter

binnie

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2006, 05:44:16 PM »
Copy the file & paste it to your "reply message". It may be a long read but at least we will all get it. Looking forward to reading it. tks binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Copybell

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2006, 05:58:50 PM »
Binnie,
   Thank you for the help with posting to this forum!


     O.K.,  The Lister arrived today!  I have ripped the crate off of it, checked everything out according to George Bs notes, it's time to crank this baby up!  One crank, two cranks, three cranks, close valve, bang! She fired first time! Bang, fired again…. she's getting up to speed, whoa, what's this?  The faster those flywheels spin, the more this thing looks like a man eater…. better run!  The neighbors called the cops, they reported something about a man running around the yard with a machine in hot pursuit!
     My neighbors called the cops on me; your neighbors probably have more sense and will call the cops on the Lister.  If your experience follows the same general format as mine, maybe it's time to look into balancing your Lister.  The following is how I went about giving my Lister some semblance of balance.
     
     Take the crankshaft, connecting rod and piston out of the engine.

     Remove the piston from the connecting rod.

     Install the big end bearing, bearing cap, bolts, nuts and cotter pins on the connecting rod.

     Place the big end of the connecting rod on an accurate scale, the small end of the connecting rod should not be on the scale, it should be supported off scale with the center line of the wrist pin hole and the center line of the big end hole level with each other. (see drawing)  Make note of this weight.

     Support the crankshaft in a device which will allow it to turn freely.

    Install both flywheels on the crank along with the flywheel keys.

     Attach a weight equal to the weight obtained above to the crankshaft at the connecting rod bearing surface, engine builders call this a bobweight.

     With the bobweight attached, start the crankshaft rotating.  If you have managed to eliminate most of the friction between the crankshaft support and the crankshaft, the crankshaft will stop rotating with the heaviest spot down.  Add weight to one of the flywheels until the crankshaft stops rotating at a different spot each time.  What you are trying to accomplish is a balanced assembly.  The assembly should not have a heavy spot that always returns to the bottom.

     Once you are satisfied with your balancing job, weigh the amount of weight that you added to the flywheel, divide this weight in two and add this amount to each flywheel.

     I have an Indian built Lister 6/1 engine.  In my case the bobweight is 6.05 lbs.
     The weight I added to the flywheel in the balancing procedure was 2.60 lbs.
     Drilling a 7/16" hole through the flywheel at the counterbalance removes .04 lbs.

   2.60 lbs. / 2  =    1.30 lbs.

   1.30 lbs. + .04 lbs = 1.34 lbs. added to each flywheel

     BE CAREFUL!  Weight added to the flywheels must be secured very, very well.  Imagine the force involved if a 1 lb. weight became disengaged from the flywheel turning at 600+ R.P.M.  BE CAREFUL!  If you have no clue about machinery or the forces involved, do not mess with this.  I suggest you install the weights on the interior rim of the flywheel so that the weight is tight against the interior rim.  Doing so will insure that the centrifugal force of the flywheel turning pushes the weight against the rim.  In addition, I bolted the weight to the flywheel with a 7/16" bolt.

     My friend Mac McQuaid suggested leaving the crankshaft in the engine and loosening the bolts holding the housing for one of the taper roller bearings so that the crankshaft moves as free as possible.  This sounds like a wonderful idea to me so long as your bobweight does not interfere with the crankcase as you turn the flywheel to find balance.

     This balancing is called static balancing.  A good engine builder will have a machine capable of a dynamic balancing.  Dynamic balancing is where the crankshaft with bobweight attached along with flywheels is placed in a machine and rotated.  The forces exerted are measured so that weight can be added or removed in order to obtain the desired balance.
This method would be more precise than static balance; however, my engine is no longer chasing me around the yard and I suspect yours may benefit from this simple procedure.

Note:  Since writing the above, I have questioned the wisdom of drilling anywhere on the flywheels.  I suggest finding an alternate way of attaching balance weights.

Best regards,
Copybell
Omega brand 6/1
Fuking brand 6/1
Satyajeet brand 20/1
Mini Petter

solarguy

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2006, 06:17:36 PM »
thanks Copybell,

It's a small world.  I already used your procedure, via George over a year ago, and it worked well.

Finest regards,

troy