Author Topic: Balancing out the Bounce---  (Read 78637 times)

Quinnf

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2006, 04:05:16 PM »
Jeff, that sounds like a 10/1; a 1000 rpm engine.  The circular holes in the flywheels, are there two or three of them?

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

xyzer

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2006, 06:17:38 PM »
XYZER,

 Why don't u post ur email so others can talk with u on getting the easyer way done right the first time.

 Ok, email me so we can talk please.
                    Thanks , Jeff
Jeff,
The e-mail is fixed. I got confused you posted in another thread and I got confused. ???..I'll stick with this one. I have to agree with the previous posts concerning your flywheel runout! That would be my first concern. .120" TIR is .060" off center.  I would address this first. Also check for crank for runnout.
Flywheel runnout alone would cause a balance issue, and cause belt and generator speed issues....just another pulse. I can tell you from experience the flywheels on a 6/1 ain't just plain ol castiron! They are tougher than hell to machine! Think carbide! I have found on a 6/1 externaly balanced with castiron piston the castiron piston is the real culprit in the bounce issue. Most or I should say 2 of the ones I have balanced were at 50% for the reciprocating mass. We found 65% is a better number. If your motor was settup for and aluminum piston and they stuck in a castiron you will have an issue!
Dave   
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

dieselhead

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #137 on: November 19, 2006, 12:13:46 AM »
 Hi Guys,

 Let me try again to explain.  My 10/1 is a 1,000 rpm, I will run it at 600 rpm moat of the time.  I bought a double pulley from Mike M. (great job) 60lbs for the ST generator.  I can run at 600, 800, 1,000 or if really needed a little higher for short time for running welders.  My ST has a AVR so I think the volts will be ok, I hope the Hz will also. 

 The problem is runout.  The outside rim face has .050", this inside face (lip) is .030", the side of the rim is .010".  Now here is the real runout, the hub on the largest dia. is .110" & .120" at the smallest dia.
At about 200 rpm's,  no shaking, at the slowest adjustment on the linkage, it is still lifting my 5" concrete slab. 

Eric thinks the Crankshaft counterweights (bolt-on) are for the cast iron piston maybe, being too heavy. Countering the rod & piston too much.  I removed one counter weight, it shook more, but now with only one 6lb, 5.5 oz of counter weight, it is too light by 2lbs, 5.5 ozs.

Is this making any sense ?

The "good" flywheel has runout of .010" on the rim face, .040" inside rim lip, .030" side of rim, & .070" on the hub.   So must of the runout is on the hubs.    Also, Mine has a ring gear bolted to the "good" flywheel.  This could be the problem also, I will measure also.

I was thinking of timing the injection to "smooth out" the timing if that helps.  Then grind some of the runout on the hubs to see if hat helps also, if yes, take to a machinest & remove all runout.  I do not see any extra weight on the flywheels as a counter weight, but there is one hole drilled on the "bad" flywheel.   The other option is to see if Eric will replace these shitty flywheels with ones that will work.

                               Thanks ,  Jeff in Colorado

hotater

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2006, 12:47:48 AM »
Jeff---

Do you usually slap rattlesnakes and carry around greanades with paperclip pins??!!   

YOU ARE LIVING VERY DANGEROUSLY!!

Please do yourself a BIG favor and REPLACE THE FLYWHEELS FIRST!!  They are the problem and, *I* think, will be what kills you pretty quick, if you don't quit screwing around.  You've found the problem...FIX IT!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Quinnf

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #139 on: November 19, 2006, 01:29:35 AM »
I'll try again:

Jeff, the 3 1/2" diameter circular holes in the web (the disk part) of the flywheel.  Are there two holes or three?  This is important to your problem.

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

binnie

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2006, 01:54:11 AM »
Quinn,
You are asking Jeff about the 2holes or 3 holes in the flywheels...I just bought a Lister 1940's vintage SOM and it has only got 2 holes in the flywheels....any others I have seen have the 3 hole variety....I thought I might have a 3/1 engine rather than a 6/1 (since I rec'd an e-mail that the engine numbers indicated a 3/1)   ....but that is not the case since I have had it inspected and the bore is a 4/5 and not the 3/5......however, the flywheels are 2 hole. Can you elaborate on what you are getting at with Jef...and questioning the number of holes. I have never seen a 2 holer before outside of a wooden shed with a door & a 1/2 moon in it? binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

binnie

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2006, 01:56:35 AM »
Quinn,
You are asking Jeff about the 2holes or 3 holes in the flywheels...I just bought a Lister 1940's vintage SOM and it has only got 2 holes in the flywheels....any others I have seen have the 3 hole variety....I thought I might have a 3/1 engine rather than a 6/1 (since I rec'd an e-mail that the engine numbers indicated a 3/1)   ....but that is not the case since I have had it inspected and the bore is a 4/5 and not the 3/5......however, the flywheels are 2 hole. Can you elaborate on what you are getting at with Jef...and questioning the number of holes. I have never seen a 2 holer before outside of a wooden shed with a door & a 1/2 moon in it? binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Quinnf

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2006, 03:03:00 AM »
They have only 2-holers in GB?  You folks must have small families there.   :-\

The 10/1 is supposed to have 3 holes in the flywheel web.  Two should be kidney-shaped, and the third hole, perpendicular to the axis of a line drawn through the other two serves as an un-counterweight, since there's about 3 lbs 2 ozs of metal removed at that point by the presence of the hole.  (the foregoing per David Edgington's [may his name be praised] most excellent book, of which everyone should have at least one copy).   http://www.utterpower.com/lister_cs_story.htm

My thought (fear) is that Jeff's engine might be a mongrel.  If it has regular 10/1 flywheels and someone in India decided that it could be really cool to bolt counterweights on the crankshaft, without also modifying the flywheels, that could create a real cast-iron jackrabbit.  For instance, 3.125 lbs, the weight of the un-counterweight hole, swinging around a 7" radius circle at 1000 rpm generates a centripetal force of 200 x 3.125 lbs or 621 lbs.  If one of his counterweights is 2 1/3 lbs, then that's about right, depending on the radius they're swinging.  If there's a third hole in the flywheel, he's in trouble with that setup.

Howsomever, your SOM does have only 2 holes; I've seen that in pictures and wondered how they achieve balance without counterweights swinging around somewhere.  It might be that the mass of the flywheels is so great that the imbalance created by the lack of counterweights just gets absorbed.  6 lbs/600 lbs flywheel weight is 1%.  Hmmm . . . is a puzzlement.

Quinn


Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

binnie

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2006, 03:58:39 AM »
Thanks Quinn,
I've ordered a copy of David's new book....I think my SOM may pre date the inovation 3 holer but yes, a puzzelment!....I will let you know how it runs after recondition. binnie
PS: I'm in Cda, but we are also conditioned to waiting our turn in line. Annal-retentive is a direct result of the 2 holer. I hesitate to mention that I have just ordered a fan & radiator set-up to compensate.
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

dieselhead

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #144 on: November 19, 2006, 06:18:17 AM »
 Hi,

Mine has 5 holes evenly spaced, about 4" dia., no extra weight that I can see.  The flywheel on the fuel tank side has one hole drilled on the inside side of the rim, (balance hole ?).  Only one drilled hole anywhere.

Yes it shakes around alot.  Eric said his flywheels have the same runout, but they are fairly smooth.

I'll see if he will swap me flywheels.  The bolt on counter weight are 6 lbs, 5.5 ozs each. Seems like a lot.

Mine is a Vidhata.            Thanks , Jeff

Quinnf

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2006, 03:56:51 AM »
Binnie,

Sorry for calling you a Limey.  Didn't know you were up Canadia-way.  Regards to Red Green!


Hi Jeff,

"Well,"  as the virgin bride said to her new husband on their wedding night, "It's different" 

5 holes, not 4?  My Ashwamegh manual shows the 10/1 has 4 holes.   That sounds like the flywheel they used on some of the larger Indian variants.  Re-reading your message I see it's a Vidhata, which is a brand I know nothing about.  But at least we know now that they didn't give you a counterweighted flywheel AND bolt counterweights onto the crankshaft, which was what I was trying to determine.

Looking at the vidhata.com website, it looks like they're using 120 mm pistons on the 8 and the two 10s, so that's no indication of whether or not it's aluminum.
Time to contact your vendor and see where you stand.  The kind of runout you've measured would be alarming on a 650 rpm flywheel, but on a 1000 rpm flywheel that's alarming.  The energy stored in the flywheel increases as the square of the speed, so taking a wobbly flywheel from 650 to 1000 rpm makes a bigger difference than one might think.

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

dieselhead

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2006, 06:47:59 AM »
Hi All,

 The piston IS Alum. so that should help lower the shakes & jumping.  Maybe Vidhata put the wrong bont on counter balance weights.  Thats what Eric at RMPS thinks, but he does not have a cast iron piston to weigh the difference from the alum. piston

Any one know how much the 120mm iron piston weighs ?

Or how much the bolt on counter weight should be ?

Or how much their 10/1 bolt on counter weights weigh, either for iron or alum. pistons so we can work backwards ?

                          Thanks ,  Jeff

Doug

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Re: Balancing out the Bounce---
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2006, 01:35:13 AM »
I don't own a Listeroid Dieselhead so I can only comment from my own experience with other large machines and prime movers. If you have fly wheels that are machined off center and off tilted one way or the other they may ballance out in a static state but once spinning the forces will cause the machine to shake.

Jack and a few others here have sugested you stop running the thing untill you get some good fly wheels. Its a point that has been repeated. The way these things are cast machined and designed to run places the load and forces perpendicular to the crank. Screwed up machining you discribe introduces forces that stress the flywheels at there weakest point.

120 pounds of iron at a 40 mph rim speed is a lot of stored energy....
Indian cast Iron could be made from god knows what...

You are playing a Dangerous game, you won't get any warnings it will just shatter and spread missery.

Doug