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Author Topic: auto/emergency shutdown  (Read 17103 times)

captfred

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auto/emergency shutdown
« on: May 11, 2008, 01:07:09 PM »
Yes, I did a search of this on the forum and have, as always, come up blank - mind you my poor forum search results are most likely due to me.  Anyway....

OK here's what I got....

Murphy safety switch gauge with a Murphy 1 1/2in solenoid
Milwaukee 2 1/2in butterfly valve

What I want to do is be able to auto shutdown in the event of overheat (thinking about linking the solenoid by cable to the injector pump control rod or maybe the butterfly valve fit in the air intake). Also need some sort of relay to disconnect the power output from the st head in the event of auto shutdown.

I also want to have a manual (or automatic) air cutoff in the event of runaway (think "screamin' jimmy, and I hate jimmy's that scream. or any other engine that runs away for that matter).

Any Ideas, criticisms, critiques or conclusions are, as always, greatly appreciated.


PS our power rates just pushed thru 37 cents per KW for the first 500, oh and the power just went out agian (for the third time today - no joke)

Cheers, Fred


dieseldave

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 04:19:02 PM »
37cents/kilowatt! I thought we had it bad in Alberta. We pay around 19cents/kilowatt total when you include the service charges >:(

sailawayrb

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 03:48:11 PM »
I use LPG fumigation (feed into engine intake) to help reduce coking caused by SVO combustion.  I use a 3 way solenoid valve as a safety feature to shut off the LPG when the engine is NOT running and to allow LPG to flow when desired.  The other "path" of the valve is used to shutdown the engine in an emergency (high RPM, voltage, or vibration) by feeding Nitrogen (feed into engine intake using same LPG plumbing).  It's a pretty simple way to ensure engine shutdown if you have Nitrogen around the homestead.  I use Nitrogen for dispensing my homemade beer.  Just cutting the fuel may not do the trick if you have a run away engine feeding on lubrication oil, etc.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 03:55:08 PM by sailawayrb »

captfred

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 09:24:07 PM »
Hadn't thought of inert gas most industrial gasses are shipped in and expensive (CO2 would be an exception)

What I'm thinking is set the murphy switch to say 210 deg, if the engine hits that temp the solenoid would actuate the butterfly valve and cut off the air supply.

Come to think of it a vibration sensor would be nice - and looking for an appropriate relay to cut of the ST head during the shutdown process.

Cheers

Stan

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 10:25:28 PM »
I"ve no experience with cutting off the air supply so take what I say with a grain of salt, but wouldn't the sudden stop that would cause be kind of damaging to a diesel engine?  I'm not a diesel mechanic but I know how much inertia those big flywheels have and if you suddenly stop a piston using air pressure, those big flywheels are still turning and will want to turn lots of times before they stop.  I don't mean cutting off the O2 using CO2 or Nitrogen, I mean plugging up the air intake with a butterfly valve or tennis ball or something like that.  It would seem to me, just looking at the physics of it, that the crankshaft, con rod, and piston would take an awful load.
Stan

Tom

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 10:36:03 PM »
Cutting off the intake air won't cause a sudden stop. It will just end the combustion process, similar to cutting off the fuel. In fact it may coast down a bit slower as the compression would be lowered a bit.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Stan

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 10:41:56 PM »
So on the downstroke (intake stroke) would the exhaust valve open if the intake manifold were suddenly sealed or would the valve train (gears, tappet rod etc.) transmogrify?  Otherwise there would be a hell of a vacuum in the cylinder wouldn't there?
Stan

oliver90owner

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 10:52:53 PM »
Stan,

A vacuum is only 15 psi in old money (or 100 000 Pascals in new).  No air into the pot and there will be reduced compression.  Too much fuel to burn it all so less power on the first power stroke (if there was enough compression to ignite the fuel).  Even less combustion air is then available, so no power at all.  So reduced loadings and a slowing engine,  The actual mechanics of valve overlap, back-feeding exhaust gas and such-like may give more compression to slow the engine faster but there will be no extra loads and somewhat less than operational loads (ie -  no 'power' stroke).

Closing the inlet was, I believe, a  normal, if emergency, shutdown procedure on the Detroit 2 stroke diesels.

Gas is compressible or expandable so no excessive loads like an hydraulic lock at speed, which would certainly destroy something.

Regards, RAB

MacGyver

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 11:01:58 PM »
Yes, many Detroits, and also some Deutz diesels had an "emergency shut off" flap that closed off the intake air in case of runaway.
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

Stan

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 11:40:36 PM »
Allright!  Thanks guys, I guess I'm still capable of learning something everyday.  Nice to know I'm still alive  ;D
Stan

mbguzzi

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 07:48:09 AM »
Hi,

I emergency shut down my Listeroid with electro magnet (such a kind of device). Device is powered with 12V backup power (accu). Device pull up a small handle, which is prepared for shut down the engine.
If you need more info about my solution, don't hesitate with your questions!

Warm regards,
Matevz

Petersbpus

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 05:16:15 PM »
The Murphy temperature Switch Gauge I ended up with on my 1115 Changfoid was equipt
with a pre shutdown contact, (about 10 degrees F) prior to the final shutdown, to
which I hooked a buzzer. That gave me the chance more than once to reduce load,
shutdown or fix the problem before the unit went into full auto shutdown under load.
This got used several times Post WILMA. 


If you simply interrupt the DC feed to the exciter windings on an ST head,, that
would stop the AC generation but not disconnect the loads resulting in probable
loss of residual magnetism.  Not a huge deal if you are set up to “FLASH THE FIELD”
afterwards…………  Not to be confused with Mooning the grandstands

That may not be a problem if you don’t have any resistive loads connected,

A better option may be a magnetic contactor like you would use to start a large size air compressor or other large load motor, these are readily available and using a simple relay to interrupt the exciter field would cut power resulting in loss of magnetic field for the contactor and it would open automatically. Those are plentiful and reasonable priced used.

OR
ATS 30 AMP Automatic Line Transfer Switch
Here’s an option for shut down of the load line on the genset from Mike up in Indiana,
I have bought a lot of items from him over the years, gauges, relays, pumps, filters,
and sound shields mainly. He’s always open to offers and is a solid guy.
This particular switch would require one for each leg, but is an option.
 mikes_garage_sale

ATS 30 AMP Automatic Line Transfer Switch

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&itemcount=4&sspagename=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%252BIA%26itu%3DIA%252BUCI%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D42&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&viewitem=&refitem=130218031638&item=140230714344&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m185



As far as shutdown during a runaway, why couldn’t we just engage the decompression lever with an automotive door solenoid??
 Stopping a diesel that wants to breathe by blocking the intake wouldn’t be easy, I think you would have to use a very positive closing mechanism like those on the GM 2 cycles, a lightweight butterfly like from a carburetor would not do the job.
 


The throttle setup of the 1115 Changfoid is perfect for the Murphy double acting solenoid.( hard high AMP pull, then light low AMP  hold)
To control both auto shutdowns and permanent HZ setting, no messing with that knob each time to get the Hertz set..
I can still warm up at fast idle and push button to go to full speed.
For a lister setup you would want to (assuming 12dc is available), hook self closing spring to the throttle lever and use the solenoid to hold it open (2 amps usage). I have seen posted on the forum several ways to accomplish this with a single acting momentary solenoid that wouldn’t use any power until activated.


A good question is how would you monitor and warn (The shutdown system) of an overspeed condition????,
vibration, HZ, voltage, flying part detector?
Has anyone had a 6/1 run away, and what was the cause??

Bob P
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

rbodell

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 05:44:09 PM »
. Also need some sort of relay to disconnect the power output from the st head in the event of auto shutdown.
Cheers, Fred

If you are only worried about loosing magnetism, I once forgot to shut off the power before shutting down the engine and nothing happened so I tried it again with several different loads including a heater. When I fired it back up again, it produced power just fine and didn't loose it's magnetism. Now I don't even bother to shut it off. If I am not using AC power I just remove the belt. I wish I could tell you who produced my ST head but there is no name on it. At least not all st heads are suceptible to loosing magnetism.
The shear depth of my shallowness is perplexing yet morbidly interesting. Bob 2007

rcavictim

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 06:13:34 PM »
. Also need some sort of relay to disconnect the power output from the st head in the event of auto shutdown.
Cheers, Fred

If you are only worried about loosing magnetism, I once forgot to shut off the power before shutting down the engine and nothing happened so I tried it again with several different loads including a heater. When I fired it back up again, it produced power just fine and didn't loose it's magnetism. Now I don't even bother to shut it off. If I am not using AC power I just remove the belt. I wish I could tell you who produced my ST head but there is no name on it. At least not all st heads are suceptible to loosing magnetism.

The British made 1500 RPM, 3-phase head I have on my VW plant run at 1800 RPM (for 60 Hz) never loses residual magnetism and there are always loads on the output windings when it is shut down.  That must be a matter of luck depending on each individual machine.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Petersbpus

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Re: auto/emergency shutdown
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 08:29:38 PM »
Maybe the residual magnatisum loosers are an urban or in this case DIY'ers legend.
I can say my Military MEP 006 has a field flash switch, but never needed it. only shut down under load once.
Although, the residual  magnatisum necessary would be in the  stator exciter windings not L1 and L2.
I think,?? so makes some since that it isn't easily lost,
That is mostly off the main subject of thread.
It is bad for stuff to be hooked up while a gen head spools down.  declining HZ and volts, :( :(
Bob P.
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold