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Author Topic: producer gas fueling Listeriod  (Read 9014 times)

Doug

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producer gas fueling Listeriod
« on: March 11, 2006, 03:58:13 AM »
Some time ago a the idea of producer gs was kicked around.
The same idea has cropped up at the Gassification Arcive, for those interested there are some very intersting ideas being floated over there involving Listeroids, producer gas and by-fueling by Peter Singfield. I've exchanged a few emails with him. Right now he has China diesels and Lovson Listers running on veg and waste oil.

All in a all quite an interesting read...
(Kinda wish we could get Peter to share some of his experience with us too)

Doug

akghound

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2006, 07:26:30 PM »

The same idea has cropped up at the Gassification Arcive, ...
All in a all quite an interesting read...
Doug
Do you have a link to this site?
Thanks .... Ken Gardner
One Day At A Time
96 Dodge Cummins 2500 4x4 / Homebuilt WVO conversion
Listeroid Generator on WVO / Living off grid

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2006, 07:38:27 PM »
Hmm I guess I forgot to post it eh?

http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/

Doug

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2006, 12:22:37 AM »
This was just posted by Doug Williams in response to a question about water injection and Producer gas.

I have just returned from overseas travel, and see your question.

>i don't remember seeing any disucssion here on water/steam injection
> into an ic motor running on wood gas.  so far in the books i've not
> come across it either, but it is likely there, as i've yet to finish
> all the books.  anyways, water injection would seem to help much with
> several liabilities of woodgas fired ic engines.

All those engines which had water injection, were gasoline fuelled, the
highest form of heating you can get in an engine situation. Producer gas is
one of the lowest heating fuels, and if you put water or steam into this
gas, it will slow the flame speed right down, not crack into hydrogen and
oxygen as normal for the gasoline fuelled engine.

 The result is that the gas is still burning as it exits the exhaust causing
burnt valve seats. Catalyitic converters would seem to be nessesary to avoid
CO emissions from most engines using producer gas as fuel. As for servier
liabilities, this only applies to high speed engines, say operating over
1800 rpm, when the high torque  capability is lost. Slower speed engines can
do real justice to this very misunderstood gas.
Hope this helps,
Doug Williams,
Fluidyne Gasification.

I have just spent two weeks standing next to a five cylinder 62 litre 600
RPM dual fuel engine running on producer gas. This was the first time that I
have worked with engines of this size, but in the end, all engines work the
same on producer gas. In the past, I have often read that high diesel
replacement of up to 90% has been achieved, but from our own experience,
only managed 82.23% under perfect conditions. It was therefore a surprise to
actually be told by the engine specialist on site, that our big engine was
operating at 94% replacement of diesel, but there is a twist to this
statement.

When originally supplied for it's intended purpose as a base load stand-by
generator, the engine was sized 20% bigger than the actual rated out put of
the generator, effectively setting the engine to be operating at 80% of the
normal rated out put on diesel. At this 80% out put, it is the maximum point
of dual fuell efficiency, so when operating on producer gas, it litterally
just shut down the injector pump, relegating the diesel to fullfil the role
of a spark plug. The sound was like the hit and miss of a faulty spark plug,
and the acceptable way of operating these engines on dual fuel. The actual
diesel fuel flow was less at maximum out put, than required to just idle the
engine on no load.

Without a doubt, the fly wheel is the reason that allows this high
replacement, along with the slow speed, so it should be understood, that the
smaller, higher speed engines, just do not have the innertia to get that
higher replacement %. I should also mention that I had the oppertunity to
confirm the accuracy of the Fluidyne Engine Tables www.Fluidynenz.250x.com
making it easy to see what you can get out of the engine in front of you.

Clearly the slow speed engine with a big fly wheel, has advantages fuelled
on producer gas, and if the load can be kept constant, will do justice to
maximizing diesel replacement. I really admire your tenacity to make those
Listeroids perform as your need dictates.

Doug Williams,
Fluidyne Gasification.


SLOW SPEED, that is the solution to biomass fueling of IC engines. If there was ever a more practical enigine than the DI Lister clone or Petters for producer gas I haven't seen it.

Doug ( not the guy from Auz )

Gassification Archive

http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification_listserv.repp.org/
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 04:58:40 AM by Doug »

Guy_Incognito

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2007, 11:00:09 AM »
Hmmm. Utterpower has some sort of chinese gasification plant thingo:

http://www.utterpower.com/gasification_plant.htm

Quote
In china, this unit is used to make cooking gas, in fact there's a cooking stove that comes with the unit that even has a push button igniter built in. The brief instructions that are found in the box, say this unit can be shut down for 10 hours and then restarted without re lighting the fire box. I have talked to friends in UK that suggest a setup like this makes plenty of gas to run a pickup, and the preferred fuel is charcoal because it makes such a large amount of clean and BTU rich gas. The charcoal is made by the user, and there is plenty of information on making your own. In China, they use all kinds of stalks twigs, small branches and crop stubble, the dryer the better the gas.

Dammit! Something else to tinker with.  :D

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2007, 12:11:54 AM »
I realy think the smart way to go about this would be to build a Pioneer class gasifier like I did and tinker with at first. The incomplete F3 system is a step above that again.

I think wet filter is a bad idea, because it adds more moister to an already wet gas that will have to strip out and it will cause havock with a safety filter.

The F3 is kind of still born. Yes it works and it produces fairly clean gas, but it never lived up to its full potential.

The next one the F3 + will be a gravity fed two stage unit. Force draft under presure. Gas will be drawn off the first stage to fire a burner for process heat. I know efficency will be lower this way but I am after cleaner and cleaner gas now with a higher BTU content.

F3 + is so far off in the future the ink isn't even dry on the cock tail napkin yet......

Still no proof that anyone has used these chinese units made to produce cooking gas ( where tar isn't an issue ) has run an IC engine for more than a brief test. For that matter I haven't even seen a picture of one hooked to an engine. I woudn't risk a good engine on it, better to get a scrap motor and run some tests, check the dust load on the gas and effects on oil.

Doug
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Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2007, 12:30:59 AM »
I've exchanged a few emails with this fellow as well. Mostlybecause his Fieldmarshal is Twin 102 mm by 116 mm all bushed Petteroid......

We have started a systematic experimental investigation of a 12-kWel downdraft
gasifier (manufacturer: Ankur Scientific) fueled by wood-chips of different
"quality" and also of wood-chips/charcoal mixtures. We have already arrived at
some conclusions (preliminary, but, to some extent, also well settled) as well
as at many open issues. Please proceed in reading.
1. Thanks to a proper setting of the "shaker" (eccentrically rotating mass), no
woodchips-bridges take place. So, contrarily to what expected, this is
definitely no problem.
2. The gasifier is not thermically insulated, which implies, even for dry wood
(20% umidity), hearth temperatures below 800 °C, i.e. well below the optimum. At
these temperature levels, tar production is high and gas yield is low.
3. We are still studying theoretically what the optimum is. In our opinion it
should be localised well above 1100 °C, probably even near 1500 °C. Notice that
we try to avoid increasing the hearth temperatures by way of oxidation (i.e.
feeding more air), rather we operate by providing thermal insulation. Actually,
we are now insulating the hearth, and, prospectively, we will enhance the fuel
caloric value by mixing woodchips with charcoal. Are we correct in expecting, in
this way, higher gas yields and lower tar contents?
4. We are facing the unexpected problem of finding cheap wood-charcoal (we are
now using barbecue-quality charcoal, not a very economic choice). This
difficulty has induced us to conceive utilisation of wood-chips/clean-coke
mixtures. What exactly "clean-coke" means we still do not know, but probably we
will be able to ask a near-by coke producer to set up its coal-coking process
parameters so to yield a particularly "clean" coke. Has anybody got experience
about adopting coke for gasification? Are its toxic, mineral and sulfur contents
well below the "black-coal" ones? Is its porosity adequate to the aim? Aside
from its intrinsic purity, charcoal seems to us well suited to gasification on
ground of its porosity. Does the term "clean-coke" sound familiar to anybody? We
heard it somewhere, sometime ago, but now we cannot find any hint about its
"existence and consistence".
5. As far as the tar content in the producer gas is concerned, we wonder why
very seldom we hear of an "adiabatic" (i.e. thermally insulated) feed of the hot
gas, exiting the gasifier, directly into the engine. We use an excellent,
sturdy, FieldMarshall  2500 cubic-cm, a formerly diesel engine, now "converted"
(of course keeping the same compression ratio) by addition of sparkplugs for
low-calorific value gas fuelling. Tar should not condense if kept hot, then it
burns out in the cylinder and produces power. Even if some of it condenses in
the manifold, why not using some periodic clean-up, say, by fuelling the engine
with some biofuel of well known cleaning capacity? Where our line of reasoning
is fault?
Very grateful for any feedbacks.
Ferruccio Pittaluga
DIMSET/SCL - Savona Combustion Laboratory
University of Genoa - Italy
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Andre Blanchard

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2007, 05:57:02 PM »
Here is some teaser info on Paxman "Producer Gas and Suction Gas" engines.
http://www.nelmes.fsnet.co.uk/paxman/paxspark.htm
http://www.nelmes.fsnet.co.uk/paxman/suctngas.htm

I have seen on the net someplace a cutaway drawing of a system where they were vaporizing oil and passing the vapor thru a bed of hot coke.  They must have been putting some O2 thru also to keep the coke hot.  Sadly I cannot find the link now. :(
______________
Andre' B

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2007, 11:08:37 PM »
There is no such thing as easy and cheap simple gas producers that will make good gas form any feed stock.

Do it realy wrong and the tar will seize your Listeroid the first time.

I murdered a couple of engines before I learned what I was doing wrong. I think I have a handle on it now but it will take at least one more gasifier and an even better dry filter system. I need special steel alloys and glass cloth filters among other things.

I need to a way to cheaply and easily cut wood blocks, I can't make a reliable run on chips....
Others have had much better luck but its the feed stock and the need for uniform low ash fuel.

Doug
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skeeter

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 07:19:21 PM »
Doug -

I have been interested in dual fueling my twin. This summer I hope to start experimenting with a gasifier design, after I "cleanup" my current project. Over the pass year, I've been gathering and studing a number of books and pamplets on gasification, and have intermittantly (recently I've been spending alot of time getting my listeroid up and running) followed the Gassification Archive, and have frequented Doug Williams, Greg Manning's, as well as other sites I've found on the net I've found this post interesting because from memory, Doug Williams previously had not been positive about dual fueling listeriods. I guess his recent experience has changed this?  Regarding perfecting an experimental gasifier system, how have you tackled the issue of quantifying the ash/particulate matter present in the gas stream, at the output of the gasifier and later after the filter system. Is their a practicle way of accomplishing this without a bunch of specialized equipment.

PS 12/2 & 7.5kw ST Head
195 deg. F T-Stats
Motorguard Bypass Filter
xyzer's Dippers
1100 hrs & counting

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 03:51:46 AM »
Go with the Pioneer and run charcoal.

I mixed char with chips and found that worked good too.

I have no ideas about filtering stuff. Latest plan is to use " used CAT " filters after the gas cooler. I understand that filter efficiency increases as they clog so a Used filter should grab the fines better than my charcoal/fiberglass experiments.

I don't realy know what I am doing. The more I learn the more I come to see that this simple technology brakes down into ever increasingly complex chemestry and technique.

You read the gassification archive, you see the debates.
And BTW Doug Williams and Greg Manning are two realy great guys. Doug has been kind enough to answere some questions for me off list. Greg also is willing to share some thought and opnion.

Will a precup engine work?
I can't be sure, but I know a Petteroid will and its no accidient that I chose the Petter over the Lister.
The FAO PDF files show that Nordstrom couldn't make precups run well beyond a 15% full sustitution and a spark ignition conversion is tataly out of the question on a precup.

This also explains my spare Petteroid head if I ever go so far to modify the casting to accept a plug.

Good luck Skeeter
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skeeter

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 03:53:11 PM »
Doug -

I know I'd be rowing upstream, trying to dual fuel a precup. First, I've got to get a gasifier system perfected to the point that I'm not afraid of destroying the engine that connected to it. I have a feeling, that's going to take a while. My feedstock is going to be chopped up hardwood "cherry, maple, yellow birch among others" tops left over from firewood cutting and thinnings from lot management. The cost effective "chopping" is going to be another issue.

I'll probably proceed as follows:

- Learn how to measure ash/ particulate in gas stream.
- Perfect gasifier to obtain good quality gas with lowest ash.
- In parallel with above effort, work on economical chopping method.
- Perfect filter system to obtain cool, dry, low ash gas stream.
- Prove out system on cheap old spark ignition engine.
- Only when I'm sure of gasifier system will I consider fueling trying to fuel lister.

Overall, my goal is to be able to woodgas fuel a durable genset engine. I know this may involve fueling an engine other then what I have now. I probably have read allot of the same, regarding trying to dual fuel precups. I just get the feeling that their may be a solution, and that past efforts were not complete, methodical, and thorough as required. If I'm wrong, their's alway DI or spark combustion.
PS 12/2 & 7.5kw ST Head
195 deg. F T-Stats
Motorguard Bypass Filter
xyzer's Dippers
1100 hrs & counting

Doug

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Re: producer gas fueling Listeriod
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 01:50:45 AM »
If you go back threw the archive Dr Tom Reed posted some information on centrifical filter design and the science behind partical seperation....

DOug
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