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Author Topic: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.  (Read 9686 times)

clytle374

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This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« on: April 07, 2008, 05:37:15 AM »
I have a creek that runs about 30ft from our house, and it is constantly taunting me with how much energy might me there for the taking.

I am building a weir to get an average flow measurement but that will have to wait since it has been raining for days.  Also trying to get a measurement of the many foot drop I have but the GPS won't work up in the trees and I have no line of sight to make it easy any other way.  I might take all the various hoses and pipes around here and actually measure the pressure to find the drop.

I am currently estimating 100' drop with enough water to fill a 4" pipe about 1200' expen$ive, I meant long.

Using I nifty little calculator I found http://www.energyalternatives.ca/Downloads/MicroHydroCalc.exe  says that is about 2KW minus generator efficiency.   The same calculator shows a permanent magnet gen @53% and a AC brushless @ 58%, I thought some people here have said a ST is better than that.  ??

Now if I can untangle any red tape in my plan, and afford the pipe, ect ,ect.  My questions are:

Will a ST head (probably a ST-3) survive orientated with the shaft vertical?

Suggestions for something  better than a ST head for efficiency?  Please remember this isn't a NASA funded project.

Anyone know about power buyback laws in the US? I have been looking and can't find much info.  I don't want to net meter as I would end up giving them a large amount of power for free.  I could "burn it off" over the winter with electric heaters if I have no other option.   



 

ronmar

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 06:22:04 AM »
Well my first question would be, what are the laws governing the water in the creek?  It may flow across your land, but it isn't yours.  And even though you are just using it's falling to get energy from, there are some pretty draconian laws on the books governing waterflow.  In many cases, you cannot place anything into the streambed that would impede the flow in any way, so the small weir at the top might be a problem.  What may be allowed, such as is used on irrigation systems, is a pit/trunk alongside the stream, and the water you use flows into this pit and into your pipe.  I would start with your local irrigation board/council.  Your local fish and game and EPA will probably have a say also.  Even if it is against the rules to use the water for this, if you can show them a non-interference system, they may be persuaded to allow your green power system.

Those efficiencies do sound low. AN AC generator should be higher than that.  One of the biggest issues with hydro power is RPM/frequency regulation.  The mechanism to do this with a purely AC system and be responsive to load changes is pretty complex.  As a guess, I would say most micro hydro systems nowdays are generating DC and running this thru an inverter which takes care of all the regulation.  DC with batteries also allows a pretty small water source to become viable as it can provide 24/7 and provide more total power than is consumed in a day, but be far less than the peak demand which the batteries cover for.

If this stream flows year round, I wouldn't bother with net metering either.  I would go off grid...  If that is possible, that may justify a little more investment in the system.   

Ron
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clytle374

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 06:57:13 AM »
I did talk with someone a while back who builds ponds and is often involved in the process, and he didn't think damming it up would be a problem.   There is already a small pond at the top that could be used.  Should be grandfathered if there is a problem in that aspect. 

The V notch weir is only for measuring and is being added to the end of a culvert under a old logging road.   The creek is rock bed, no fish or other creatures in it.  It does flow year around but the GPM available during the dry part of summer is the question. 

EDIT:  One the frequency issue.  I didn't think I could regulate the RPM well enough to use its output directly.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 04:56:07 PM by clytle374 »

Stan

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 01:19:10 AM »
There's a guy here in Kimberley somewhere that sells a "magic" black box filled with tiny little wires and surface mount components (then filled with black resin) that he sells world-wide to small scale hydro users that balances the load requirements for different circuits (presumably some are just resistive loads) that keeps the frequency stable.  He once complained to a friend of mine that the chinese were buying up a few of his installations and trying to tear them apart to copy them.  He has supposedly prevented that with lots of dummy parts to keep them from being exrayed and the epoxy prevents the dissasembly from happening.  Just a story I heard over many beers one day but I could ask around if anyone is interested. 

One comment I heard was "if you have to ask how much they cost, they cost too much".
Stan

Doug

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 02:28:42 AM »
That little black box wouldn't be hard to make Stan....

Brushless excitation is more efficient than a PM alternator.

Without facts and numbers to support this claim I can only say that it agrees with my gut feeling and lets not get into PM alternators for 60 hz power generation.

There shouldn't be any problem running an ST head in any orientation.
Technicaly the ones in China are already upside down......
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MacGyver

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 02:38:25 AM »
A hydro project sounds like lots of fun!
100 feet of head is a good thing. Can you estimate the flow in GPM, or LPS, or some quantifiable number?
53% efficiency sounds dreadfully low for a PM generator. ... that's not right.

Here's a good forum for micro hydro projects:
  microhydro@yahoogroups.com

This guy has small Turgo wheels for sale.
  http://h-hydro.com/

I bought one from him as part of my attempt to suck energy from this:
http://www.weirdstuffwemake.com/weird/stuff/altenergy/our_creek.html

I've had too many other projects and expenses to buy the pipe and
pursue it any further this year....
Steve

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Doug

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 02:52:08 AM »
In efficiency size matters.....

Gut feeling is the PM alternators are only going to be realy efficient in a narrow range of speeds and at specific loads.

The excited type will have a wider range for adjustment but a lot more important is size.

I'm a big fan of over shot water wheels, and I'd probably be looking at both a PM and brushless syncronous machine to use. But the only water here is flow out of my sump pump Lucky you clytle374
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clytle374

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2008, 06:56:02 PM »
Measuring the height is becoming a real problem.  A altimeter isn't accurate enough.  And surveying it is out$  I guess I will run airlines, pex tubing, and garden hoses and measure the pressure. ???

The GPM is too high to measure at the moment since it has been raining a lot.  A measurement in a dry month is what i really need.  I'm sure it would fill a 2" and most likely a 3"  pipe even in the dry months last year. 

I worked at a shop with a CNC plasma cutter a little while back,  The owner and I get along good.  He said he would cut me things cheap and often had large scrap he would use @ scrap value.   I think I'm going to have him hubs and blade pieces, I think I can weld it up with some simple jigs as long as I get a little innovative with part design.  Balancing it might be tough but I need to build a balancer for the roid wheels anyway,

Doug:  I never though about that, my ST came from India so on end should be its natural state.
 

xyzer

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2008, 08:01:42 PM »
Measure the drop with all hose you have and a bucket of water an extra person would help. Start at the top 6" above the head (so you can get water in the hose) fill the hose till you find level on the downhill side with the Measure the drop down to a point(record). Move the length of hose to that measure point 6" above the last height repeat.........add em up....then you got head.......I think.
Dave
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mike90045

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2008, 08:21:51 PM »
Measuring the height is becoming a real problem.  A altimeter isn't accurate enough.


What about GPS, if you can use a vehicle mounted one, let it track for 30 min or more, you should get a good altitude reading, then another 30 minutes at the other end.   I don't know if the battery/pocket ones will run long enough. Altitude is the one thing GPS is really slow about. needs about 5 sats to get a good measurement

clytle374

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 08:36:20 PM »

What about GPS, if you can use a vehicle mounted one, let it track for 30 min or more, you should get a good altitude reading, then another 30 minutes at the other end.   I don't know if the battery/pocket ones will run long enough. Altitude is the one thing GPS is really slow about. needs about 5 sats to get a good measurement

That was my first try. If the GPS even holds a signal lock the altitude wonders about 100"   The ravine in very steep and heavily forested.

abbamovers

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 10:22:29 PM »
.
Have you tried the old fashioned way, a topographic map of the surrounding area with the creek.
This area may have already been surveyed before and the info could be just waiting for you in your
local County records office.
The topographic maps will include elevation levels sometimes within feet.
Have any kids in high school that could access this info for you through the schools geography
class.
Could be worth a shot if the County does not charge too much to have a looksee.

.

ronmar

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 10:36:02 PM »
A basic handheld GPS dosn't have enough sig/noise ratio with it's small antenna to work well under trees.  They had to compromise somewhere to get it to fit into your pocket:)

I don't think you are going to get very accurate pressure readings from a hose down the slope, not without a pretty special pressure gauge.

If you have a measured stick and a carpenters level, say about 2' long, and an assistant you can survey this yourself quite easilly, probably within a foot or so accuracy.  Starting at the bottom, You attach the level to the top of the stick like a "T". at a measured distance from the end of hte stick, say 5'.  You are going to use this 5' "T" to establish a level sighting plane and step up the hill 5' vertically at a time.   Stand the stick on the ground, and use the bubble in the level to get it level, then sight along it like a gun.  This establishes a reasonably level sight line.  Have your assistant move up the hill. When they reach the point on the hill where their feet are at the level you are sighting along, have them stop.

You have just marked out the plane of a step from the top of your stick to their feet.  If your assistant can pull along a measuring tape, you can also write down the distance beween your sighting stick and their feet, which will allow you to graph the slope profile steps later.  If you are only interested in total height, you can skip the measurement between the two spots.  Once you have the distance if measured, walk to where your assistant is and place your stick where they were standing.  Add the measured height of your stick(5'?) to the total height, level your sighting device, and have your assistant proceed up the hill till their feet again reach the level you are sighting along.

  

Ron      
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xyzer

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 10:36:59 PM »
Gps altitude is a crap shoot
http://gpsinformation.net/main/altitude.htm
Dave
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Tom

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Re: This creek is nagging me for a hydro setup.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 10:58:51 PM »
There are 2 ways I can suggest to get your measurement. An inexpensive sight level is like a small rifle scope with a level built in. To use you measure the distance from the ground to eye. Then go out to the creek and start at the bottom, sight a spot and then go stand on that spot do it again while you count the number of measurements you take. Multiply that number times the height to your eye level and you've got your elevation. I did this to sight my water tanks. I built a gravity feed system and wanted 50 psi. I figured 21 of my heights would do the job. After installation I have 52 PSI, not bad.

The other method would be to go buy a length of 1/2" poly pipe. It comes in 1200' rolls. Start at the top and roll down the creek bed, plug end and place a pressure gauge in the end. Multiply the pressure by .43 and you've got your pressure.

something like this will do the job:
http://www.amazon.com/Berger-17-621-square-sighting-eyepiece/dp/B000KEQ474/ref=sr_1_42?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1207778198&sr=1-42
Tom
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