Thinking about a Listeroid 3/1

[mkdutchman]

I am still doing my homework on this, but I am off grid and would be using a battery bank setup, and want to add CHP after awhile if it proves feasible

My power requirements are low, in fact so low that a 3HP engine would be sufficient

I have no desire to get a Petteroid after my experience with the one I worked on last year, I'd much rather get a  slowspeed, and if no Listeroids are available in that power size I just might go for a genuine 3/1

I emailed Atul to see if he has any slowspeeds available in that power range, failing that is there anyone out there who could lend a hand in getting a hold of a Lister 3/1?

Still looking at my options.....

[emerald]

I believe Kissan Iron in India make Oids less than 6HP.

Or look for a petter diesel from a cement mixer or small dumper. Very common on this side of the atlantic and at the moment there is one on ebay in the UK for 55 UK pounds and no bits. It is air cooled.

[mkdutchman]

I believe Kissan Iron in India make Oids less than 6HP.

Or look for a petter diesel from a cement mixer or small dumper. Very common on this side of the atlantic and at the moment there is one on ebay in the UK for 55 UK pounds and no bits. It is air cooled.

Thanks for the Kissan Iron lead I'll check that out

I recieved a reply from Atul, he doesn't have a slow speed 3HP other than a 5HP Petter derated to 2.5   

Yes, there are other low power diesels here in the states, but they are all 1000+ RPM  unless I didn't look right

[Tom]

What size battery bank are you going to charge? With a common 6/1 you would be able to charge in about 1/2 the time. I say this because in my system the 6/1 is a bit undersized particularly when running the microwave.

[emerald]

It is very hard to get parts for the 3HP CS now, not much is shared between it and its bigger brother. Got for a 6HP CS as parts are plentiful and genuine new parts are still to be had if you want to pay the premium for top notch parts.

Average price for a running 6HP CS in UK is 500 UK pounds, add in shipping and that turns most people off. It gets expensive real fast!

[mkdutchman]

Maybe I should start further back......

Our home is made of logs and stone, and heated with very expensive propane ($2.15/gal at last count) and we go through a lot of it, especially in the winter. Our electrical power requirements are very low, as we don't have much besides the PC, sewing machine, and several other misc knick knacks at any one time.

So--

1. I want to go with a DC based power system, and here's why.

With DC I can eliminate the expensive inverters, complexities, and resultant losses. I am perfectly capable of designing and building my own power supplies. For those applications that need AC I would build my own inverter, and in order to make that easier and because I would be going some distances I want a 120-130V DC battery bank. Batteries used would be approx 35AH, for 120V that would be 10 12V deep cycle batteries

2. I want to utilize every bit of energy off the diesel that I can, that includes coolant and exhaust BTUs

With the current prices that I'm paying for heating, it makes sense to make a CHP setup. I don't have room for that anywhere close to the house, it would either have to be in the house or a couple hundred feet away. With the large roomy basement I have it makes more sense to put it in the basement, even if I have to put it in an airtight enclosure, etc

I have ready and easy access to a supply of IDI Metro 6/1s, I know of a guy who bought half a dozen before the EPA ban, and stockpiled them for sale less than 20 miles from here. About my only problem with that is my power requirements are too low too keep the engine under load all the time, and because I want to be burning WMO I need a high load, that was why I even looked for a lower HP engine. The ideal situation would have the motor running 24/7


Still thinking.......

[mike90045]

Maybe I should start further back......

 I need a high load, that was why I even looked for a lower HP engine. The ideal situation would have the motor running 24/7

You should get 2, and alternate them weekly.   1 engine at half load = last long time  Full load = shorter time

if one dies (and it will, going 24/7) you have a "hot" spare ready to go.  And you can do leisurely maintenance with 2, while you wait for parts for 1.

[sid]

I have an mini lister that is suppose to be a 3.5 to 4 hp/ the name plate says 8 hp but is half the size of a 6 hp lister/bought it about a year ago and got busy so it is still sitting/so they must make them // I do not think there is a big demand for them///sid

[emerald]

I dont think it makes sense to make a 3HP oid. For one reason alone is getting parts. Nobody stocks them and you would have to buy in spares and service parts in bulk. It would make better sense to buy a 6HP oid and you will have several suppliers stocking spares in several countries.

If you want to try a different engine, look at the Changfa engines. The smallest they have with balancer shafts is the 12HP model and I know owners who have 6000+ hours up on them now with zero problems. The price is pretty good too and plenty spares around. Yanmar and Kubota also make the same type engine, but you wont see many of them in the west. They are for Asian and Australian markets.

I will buy a Changfa this summer and run it with my CS and see how it works out. It is an engine I have long been curious about and there are no horror stories about them online, whereas bad oid tales are plentiful.

[oliver90owner]

mkdutchman,

The 3/3.5 is only rated at 600-650 rpm, but the 6/1 is shown as rated down to 4 HP at 500 RPM - see Listerdiesel's website.  

4 HP is not so much in excess of what you are looking at but it seems, if you are intending to run 24/7, a 1/2 kW of electricity would be more than sufficient but not be storable in your battery bank during night-time periods of low use.  

Inefficiencies everytime energy is transferred from one form to another or even just voltage changes will need to be taken into account as well but, if everything is inside your dwelling, all heat energy losses from the systems will end up as 'heating' energy.  Better to have too much electrical energy supply than not enough!!



Burning wmo may present a slightly different set of problems at lower engine speeds but this may not be a real hindrance.  Utilising some generated electrical power as heating might help to keep the engine loaded as any energy probably can be used in the winter.  Not so sure about the summer though.  Your battery bank appears a little on the 'light' side.

Running 4 HP would provide, what, about  4kW of energy not including heat any recovery from the exhaust.  Sounds like 4 kW, all as heat, might be as cost efficient as burning LPG depending on fuel costs - and you can't easily convert your LPG to electricity.

500RPM would have a benefit from the noise and vibration angle as well

Regards, RAB

PS lights, fridge, freezer, puter, microwave, kettle and knick knacks all add up to a good instantaneous load.

[rbodell]

I am still doing my homework on this, but I am off grid and would be using a battery bank setup, and want to add CHP after awhile if it proves feasible

My power requirements are low, in fact so low that a 3HP engine would be sufficient

It is easy to adjust the load charging batteries with a manual rheostat to control an alternator. I charge batteries at around 400 RPM and get 4 or 5 hours on a gallon of fuel and I don't have to run it 24/7. Just charging batteries I burn about 7 to 10 gallons of fuel a week.

I think you will have a hard time making an inverter as cheap or efficient as a factory made one. You mentioned 120 VDC batteries, It sounds like you are talking about a viberator to make the AC, am I correct? That is going to consume more than hardly any inverter on the market. I think you would have a real problem keeping it adjusted. If you are actualy going to build a real inverter, I can't see even coming close the cost of some foreign made inverter where they buy their parts by the railroad car load.

I have a harbor freight inverter, 2KW, the cheap one, I think it runs about 125 bucks or so. It runs my computer and all my electronuics with no problem. the one piece of equipment I have a problem with is my VCR. It plays fine, just has lines in the recordings when you record with it. I finally went out and baught a good inverter and much smaller for that. I think I paid 60 or 70 bucks for it.

[mkdutchman]

Let me rethink this --

My energy appliances are:

propane powered
refrigerator
indoor lighting
stove and cookstove
water heater
space heating
air compressor

compressed air powered
well pump
washer
some shop tools

electricaly powered
PC
small chargers and knick knacks - less than 50W
probably some future shop tools

I have no large appliances like a dryer (clothesline takes its place very nicely ) and no air conditioning (enough trees take care of that) and no TV, VCR, stereo (have no use for them), and no microwave, so my current electrical needs are very small

The grid is not available, or an option, in my case
================================

Hence you see why I only thought about a small battery bank, and also because the battery bank is crazy expensive

rbodell,
Yes I agree on the ease of charging with a manual rheostat, we do it that way here at work, it does the job quite well. Regarding the inverter, as far as dollars and cents go I'd probably be coming out on the losing end if I made one myself, at least the first time or so, but I would tackle it because I can do it, (I have programmed micro controllers in the past, and built various electronic projects) and because I like doing things myself. For converting the the 120 to AC I would be using modern MOSFETs and transistors, and the conversion loss should theoretically be close to zero, BUT I haven't tried it yet. I'll do that as time and money allows

If you want to try a different engine, look at the Changfa engines. The smallest they have with balancer shafts is the 12HP model and I know owners who have 6000+ hours up on them now with zero problems. The price is pretty good too and plenty spares around. Yanmar and Kubota also make the same type engine, but you wont see many of them in the west. They are for Asian and Australian markets.

No offense to Changfa, but I much prefer the Lister type. Not sure why, I'm sure a Changfa would probably work very well......

You should get 2, and alternate them weekly.   1 engine at half load = last long time  Full load = shorter time

if one dies (and it will, going 24/7) you have a "hot" spare ready to go.  And you can do leisurely maintenance with 2, while you wait for parts for 1.

Good point. But I'm thinking I'll probably retain the current system and use that as backup

when I started thinking about this I figured on putting in a small engine, and just running my electrical stuff and then using whatever heat I could capture to supplement the propane. If I would use a 6/1 I could probably run everything off that, I just need to figure out a way to convert the propane based stuff over. I can't understand why that thought didn't occur to me before 

[rcavictim]

mkdutchman,

I have to give the Changfa 195 a strong endorsement here too.  You will have a significantly lower capitol investment in this power plant both shortand long term.  So much so that you could probably have a second new engine as a standby spare within a Lister budget.

Putting storage batteries in series to make 120 VDC is asking for troubles and increased liklelyhood of accidents.  My advise is DON't DO IT.

[mkdutchman]

mkdutchman,

I have to give the Changfa 195 a strong endorsement here too.  You will have a significantly lower capitol investment in this power plant both shortand long term.  So much so that you could probably have a second new engine as a standby spare within a Lister budget.

Putting storage batteries in series to make 120 VDC is asking for troubles and increased liklelyhood of accidents.  My advise is DON't DO IT.

Two things that make the Changfa undesireable for this bottom  feeder's application........
I want the engine inside, as stated previously. Our experience with the Changfa is that they are very noisy as compared to the 'oid. Most times that wouldn't matter but if the rig is indoors noise is definitely a factor.

It's high speed. From my limited experience that works against the Changfa when it comes to alternate fuels. My goal is to move away from the expensive conventional fuels and more towards alternate stuff, like WMO, WVO, etc

As for the battery bank, why do you say that the battery bank is so dangerous? I heard a couple people say that the high voltage battery bank is dangerous, but surely that's something that can be addressed, just like guards on flywheels and other safety issues. Or am I missing something?

[rcavictim]

mkdutchman,

I have to give the Changfa 195 a strong endorsement here too.  You will have a significantly lower capitol investment in this power plant both shortand long term.  So much so that you could probably have a second new engine as a standby spare within a Lister budget.

Putting storage batteries in series to make 120 VDC is asking for troubles and increased liklelyhood of accidents.  My advise is DON't DO IT.

Two things that make the Changfa undesireable for this bottom  feeder's application........
I want the engine inside, as stated previously. Our experience with the Changfa is that they are very noisy as compared to the 'oid. Most times that wouldn't matter but if the rig is indoors noise is definitely a factor.

It's high speed. From my limited experience that works against the Changfa when it comes to alternate fuels. My goal is to move away from the expensive conventional fuels and more towards alternate stuff, like WMO, WVO, etc

As for the battery bank, why do you say that the battery bank is so dangerous? I heard a couple people say that the high voltage battery bank is dangerous, but surely that's something that can be addressed, just like guards on flywheels and other safety issues. Or am I missing something?

It is true that the 195 will make more noise than the Lister.  Taming the noise would be difficult to get that down to where I could live with an engine running in my own basement, even a Lister CS.

The more cells that you place in series in a battery bank the higher the likelyhood becomes that you will have fatal open fault occur in one of the battery's cells. MTBF declines directly as a function of the total number of cells employed.  In addition, the more cells in series the more power available to cause explosive ougassing levels from an open cell fault condition.  If ignition of the violent ougassing occurs (hydrogen and Oxygen mixed with sulfuric acid) you can have quite an explosion and possibly a fire that escapes to the room and beyond.  If you are near the battery when it bursts you could suffer life changing injury.  Unfortunately there are no easy and effective circuit wiring tricks that can be employed to render this type of battery failsafe.  A parallel bank can feature individual fuses between the main bussbars and the individual 'batteries'.