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Author Topic: Induction generator VS standard generator.....  (Read 20983 times)

emerald

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 09:56:57 AM »
The most practical post was the use an alternator to charge batteries and then use a large UPS.

Induction motors, caps, power factor....all things to complicate matters and cause problems in the future. Be there done that, ran away.


dkmc

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 09:28:19 PM »
Ok, what exactly IS net metering and how do I find out if my utility has that "feature"??

Quote
The reason you have so little waste heat is because you are not running anything!  There is at least 100% spare heat produced if and when you actually run one (even, let's say, 200% waste heat!).

Well, that makes absolutely no practical sense to me as it would apply to this discussion. Unless it's a joke?
100% SPARE heat........new scientific term?
Running a 12/2 (24/2??) at 90% load still accounts for comparatively little waste heat when relative to the 200,000 BTU's that's required for the "average" building heat (here at the shop) in winter.  Please let me ask, I appreciate that you're a "scientific type" but what is your background and occupation? Just curious....


Quote
So, come on dkmc, give us a few details and you might just get an objective reply or three or four

No problem......what details do you want to know.
I thought it was pretty simple and straight forward as explained.
Give me your suggested "to do" list and I will make an effort to collect the data .....


If I can't beat the demand charge, it's seems  a waste of time/effort/fuel/equipment to offset KWH since KWH is the cheaper part of the bill.  I am in UPSTATE NEW YORK ...thought that was clear.....utility is NYSEG........New York State Electric and Gas.

I have no problem with arguments against or for suggested equipment, it's all about proving feasibility.
MAIN GOAL is to lower electricity costs and have emergency power with the least investment in equipment.

GAWD this site is clunky to use!
I never get email notification of replys .....

dk
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 09:41:20 PM by dkmc »
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Doug

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 09:38:54 PM »
I don't know what to add, sorry....
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dkmc

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 09:44:32 PM »

Well I've seen all the JC Youtube has to offer and I'.m a big fan.....so you did just fine........   ;D
Machinist, fabricator, designer, daydreamer.... mostly.
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SCOTT

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2008, 09:50:03 PM »
As far as net metering goes,you are out of luck.  In Ny your only options for net metering are solar, wind, and farm based biogass.  If you want to go "under the radar" that is a different story. 

http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=NY05R&state=NY&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1

it is possible that your utility has different rules.  The only way to know is to call them, or better yet go to their website.

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

ronmar

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2008, 10:44:47 PM »
Well, that makes absolutely no practical sense to me as it would apply to this discussion. Unless it's a joke?
100% SPARE heat........new scientific term?
Running a 12/2 (24/2??) at 90% load still accounts for comparatively little waste heat when relative to the 200,000 BTU's that's required for the "average" building heat (here at the shop) in winter. 
dk

Well a 6/1 being used as an electrical generator consumes around 52,500 BTU per hour at a full 3KW electrical load.  About 17,500 BTU per hour exits thru the cooling system.  A 12/2 being two 6/1's, should deliver about 35,000 BTU per hour from the cooling at a full 6KW electrical load, or about the same ammount of heat as a medium sized pllet stove on medium or high.  Applying the rule of thirds, this same ammount of heat should be exiting in the exhaust also...

Ron
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

oliver90owner

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 01:32:47 AM »
dkmc,

Unless it's a joke? 100% SPARE heat........new scientific term?

No joke.
So, you are not bothered with a potential 30% saving on your heating.  I suggest you just carry on paying you electricity bill.
BTW the word 'spare' is not a new technical or scientific term.  It is in the dictionary.  As an adjective (describing word) it means superfluous, unused.  Included to keep/use a wide vocabulary, induce some thought in the readers and perhaps prompt a comment from those that are not compliant with the English language/dictionary.

Ok, what exactly IS net metering and how do I find out if my utility has that "feature"?? 

You have clearly not looked very hard for your Utility details on this subject.  Google is a gem for an information search.  That is a suggestion.

what details do you want to know.

I thought Jim had that one covered nicely.  His post did not seem to galvanise you into action.  Sum total of info so far is your minimum power take.  Oh, and your utility name. Oh, and somewhere you mentioned your max take was 6kW?

what is your background and occupation? Just curious....

Degree in Physics, education, lived on a farm for 25 years, can remember when SOMs were in regular use.  So what is yours?  No, on second thoughts don't bother.  I am not that curious.
 
GAWD this site is clunky to use!

Just think about it from the point of view of everyone else.  Little or no information from you and they are expected to give all the answers.  Does make things a bit clunky.

You need to be honest with yourself.  The list of folks who  are successfully lowering utility costs with a Listeroid prime mover is, well, uh... pretty short.  If your  fuel is free, the numbers can work out in a CHP set up.  If you're buying #2 fuel oil, forget it.

Jim's reply was  fair and to the point, I thought, but was not received well.
If, indeed, your max power take is a mere 6 kW just get yourself a 24/2 and go off grid.  Your utility charges will then be totally reduced (ie zero!), not just the meter slowed.  If your fuel costs are, as you say, near zero your costs will be the capital depreciation (tax deductable, one would presume) and routine (hopefully) servicing costs (100% set against profits). Of course you will have done the maths so you should already have a clear path to follow, or not, as the maths dictate.  QED?  You now have both my views.  Take your pick.

Ronmar,

Thanks for explaining the energy balance of a system.  Regards, RAB




Jim Mc

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 02:30:29 AM »
...I thought it was pretty simple and straight forward as explained...

No offense intended, but I don't think you know what it means to 'do the math' in this case.  It's not simple and straightforward.  And it starts with a thorough understanding of your utility bill and billing options.  You need to know how they define net metering, and understand the devilish details. 

Like I said a few days back - If you think a Listeroid is going to be a fun project to tinker at, GET ONE!  You'd be right - they absolutely are, especially as a standby generator set.  Having it pay for itself via a CHP cogen setup is very unlikely, and its even less likely to be fun...






mobile_bob

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2008, 03:58:07 AM »
personally i thought Jim and RAB gave some good insites
i tried to be helpful with an idea of the ups

however i have to tell you my opinion of selling power back to the grid

it only seems to work to some extent with truely green power sources such as solar
and only then is it feasible if there is some government subsidy involved.

my opinion is i would never produce even one watt for sale to a power company under any circumstances
even if it was solar and i had no use for the excess power
under those conditions i would cover my solar panels and save the wear and tear on the panels and extend their
lifespan.

now on a serious note, i am all for engine driven generators, not for selling back power
but for production of power that i plan on using
so get yourself a 25/2 and a good 3 phase head, and some switch gear,, such as the reversing contactor
or a transfer switch one arm bandit
and when the time of day comes around to avoid demand charges, start the lister and flip the switch gear from
grid supply to listeroid power...
then there is no need for approval from the utility or anyone else.
then harvest the heat and use it for space heating or hot water production or whatever you like while the engine is running

depending on the true demand charges and the true cost of your fuel, you might save a buck to two on your utility bill
maybe even surprise a few and save several dollars.

no friggin way i would go to the effort of getting an approved grid tie setup and figure on selling anything to the utility, or
roll back the meter and all that.

that energy is hard fought and won,, use it yourself that is where you will get the most value for your capital expence, fuel
and time.

just my opinion

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

albany dbd

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2008, 02:29:59 PM »
as someone who has been turning an inductive motor pushing power up the pole for over 2 years on used motor oil it aint worth it unless its a hobby. i have a 10-1 and finally setteled around 700 rpm pushing a 5 hrs. single phase motor.   its just not a profitable deal even if you have all the oil you want  despit4e what every one says the listers dont run well on used oil or wvo. and there is just no hard and fast info on setting up one to run defferent fuels.  to say it another way ive worked my ass off a couple months and had a 0 balance. and it would have been 160 or so. but we have rather cheep electric here in oregon. course it took about 18 months to admit the whole affair to myself.   anyway good luck   Derik
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rcavictim

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2008, 02:53:53 PM »
I think you guys are totally underestimating the payback you achieve with most net metering setups. It is actually more rewarding than you might think. For example, no-one has mentioned that you get almost as much financial return for the heat and waste gasses that you push out the exhaust pipe as for the electricity you push out the power wires to the utility!
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dkmc

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2008, 08:23:18 PM »

Well, derik unlike the "scientists", it sounds like you have been there and done that.
So your observations are quite interesting.

RCA.......I agree.
But the only way to see if it pays off, is I guess to try it yourself.

Many military aircraft designs have been researched and 'perfected' by teams of Scientists and Engineers.
When the prototype doesn't fly worth a crap, it's back to the drawing board for more 'theory'......

I am in no way interested in selling power to the utility. Never said I was.
I am interested in slowing the meter down to a minimum.
If that's too much hassle, then independent power production is the next choice.

dk 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 08:29:38 PM by dkmc »
Machinist, fabricator, designer, daydreamer.... mostly.
6/1 Ashwamegh w/ ST head
6/1 Metro w/ ST head
12/2 Metro w/ ST head
Changfa ? w/ ST head it's a big 'un
Several Hit & Miss engines
IH 330 Utility 1957
MF 1529 2011

Jim Mc

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2008, 09:40:30 PM »
...But the only way to see if it pays off, is I guess to try it yourself....

Yep, for "non-scientists" that's the only option...

That's the nice thing about a little applying science or math to real world problems.  You can get a handle on a project's viability before spending the money or time to test it.  Does it guarantee you'll get it right the first time?  Hell no.  But it can reduce the chances of making a stupid mistake.







Tom

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2008, 12:23:57 AM »
Does it guarantee it will be an intelligently mistake? ;)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

albany dbd

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Re: Induction generator VS standard generator.....
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2008, 01:31:52 PM »
If youd like to chat im always will to talk drop me a note and ill give you my number.  Derik
class 5 steam fitter - millwright - class 6 code pipe and pressure vessel welder - fabricator.  oh and good old country boy from the farm. 
( Beat it to fit paint to match ) oh and X-ray of course