Author Topic: Welding for a dummy  (Read 16607 times)

t19

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Welding for a dummy
« on: March 20, 2008, 11:52:04 AM »
Ok I am sooo confused.

I have always wanted to get a welder to do odd jobs around the house.  My 78 Z28 I bought in Florida has holes in the floors, one in the front passenger area from a lead in the front window, and another one behind the driver, under the rear seat over the muffler.  The replacement floor pans are $37 so I want to weld them in...

So what kind of welding un it should a guy get for around the house.

Wire?  Gas, Mig Tig?

Princess Auto has some small units, 115 v, wire feed welders for under $200... I know very minimal, but would it be ok for what I want to use it for?  Also want to weld together a mount for the Radiator on my Listeroid

Since you guys have forgotten more than I will ever know, I come seeking advice

Cheers

Andrew
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JohnF13

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 12:53:34 PM »
Andrew;

Stay away from the Princess stuff - spares are hard to get for some of them.  You can't go wrong with a small Lincoln Mig welder (gas or gasless), they are pretty handy and do a good job.  Mine is a 220 volt unit (you can get 110 volt ones but you'd have problems welding the Lister frame) that can be used either with or without gas.  Drop around with your plans and some steel and we can make something up pretty quickly - that way you'll get a feel for the machine.
John F
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t19

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 12:59:29 PM »
Thanks John, most kind of you
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

Stan

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 02:32:25 PM »
Andrew...I've been "shopping around" for a welder for a couple of years now and I've learned after talking to many experienced welders, borrowing a couple and reading a lot, that TANSTAAFL.  There's no small welder that will do both bodywork and 1/4" or even 1/8" thick steel.  They don't have the punch to do the thicker stuff.  Bodywork demands a gas mig welder for anyone without LOTS of welding experience.  I got a free VW hood from the scrap heap at the local auto wrecker and took it home with a borrowed mig welder.  I blew uncountable numbers of holes in the poor thing.  It looked like a Texas stop sign when I was finished.  I've decided to glue most of my panels on my VW van.  You should try it, especially for non load bearing stuff like floor panels,  it works great!

Bottom line, go quality (meaning at least $1000 for basic equipment, 135 A minimum) and practice practice practice unless you want your vehicle to be a "bondo special".

Stan

ronmar

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2008, 03:10:32 PM »
Well most welding and some pretty good equipment can be done for far less than $1000, but as Stan mentions, Auto body panels can be difficult and in a lot of cases, You are better served by bonding, gas welding or even brazing/soldering them into place.  TIG is the king here, but that will be very expensive  equipment as Stan mentioned.  I have seen comparable performance with a small gas torch though at far less cost, but requires much more skill(training/practice).  As also mentioned, stay away from the cheepie generic welders.  If you want a good basic welder, go with a Lincoln weldpack.  They will do comfortably from 18GA to 1/4" You can weld a little thinner sheet, but you must be welding it to a heavier structure such as welding a panel to a frame(I welded the side panels on my flatbed this way).  I have also welded in floor panels with mine as they are typically heavier material than fenders and such. 

They are gas capable so will do flux core or solid wire and will do Stainless, and light Aluminum.  You will avoid so many pitfalls learning how to MIG weld with a quality unit.  I have aided several people over the years struggling with weld quality, thinking it was something THEY were doing.  Well it was, they were trying with an inadequate machine and inferior wire.  You want to produce quality welds, get a quality machine. 

They are also easier to get expendable parts9tips nozzles liners) for and last a long time.  I have owned a Lincoln weld pack 100 for over 12 years now and it is still going strong.  I paid $300 for it back then, and the same basic units are about $360 at the box stores now.  I bought the gas kit for mine and the models with the gas kit already installed such as the 3200HD go for about a hundred more.   

Good Luck

Ron
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MacGyver

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2008, 03:30:59 PM »
I've got a couple welders in the shop, but the one that I use most is my little Lincoln Weld-Pak 100. It's small, portable, runs on 120v, and I use it for everything from 1/4" down to 22 gauge. I've even welded a piece of 3/4" x 4" bar with it (out in the field, no choice) but that takes some preheating with a torch and LOTS of passes with the welder. (not really recommended, but quite doable)

If you buy a "name brand" (Lincoln, Miller, Hobart, etc) then you will probably be able to get parts for it down the road.
Buy a cheap import and good luck...

I've had that little Weld-Pak since 1991, and I've put probably 150 lbs of wire through it with no problems. Just a few gun liners and lots of tips.
Great for body work. For body panels, use the smallest wire size you can get.

If you'll do much work that's more than 1/8" thick, then you should look at something that puts out more current Than the WP100.
I liked the portability of the WP100 and the fact that it will run on 120V. I've used mine in many locations where 240VAC wasn't available.

The 12 lb wire spools are *much* cheaper by the pound than the 2 lb spool. Make sure whatever you get will take the 12 lb ones if you are going to weld much. The Lincoln weld packs do, but I had to by the $10 "adapter" to fit the large spools. No big deal.

I much prefer MIG to "Flux Core" or "Innershield" wires. It's easier to clean up afterward and I find it much easier to use on thin materials. A very few folks I know prefer to use Flux Core wire instead of shielding gas, but I'm not one of them.

Buy the biggest gas bottle that you can afford (or stand to lug around).
When you go to fill it, it's usually MUCH cheaper by the lb to fill the big bottles. I think the last time I filled the big (80lb?) CO2 bottle in the shop it was about $40. Filling the little CO2 (5lbs?) is about $22.

75/25, Argon/CO2 mix gives a smoother, flatter weld and in general is best for thin materials. (body panels)
Straight CO2 gives deeper penetration and usually a less pretty weld.

I would also recommend one of the "auto-darkening" welding hoods. Especially for a beginner. Having to flip the hood down at the beginning of a weld is a distraction.

Don't forget some good gloves!

Practice and have fun.



Steve
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MacGyver

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2008, 04:06:56 PM »
Bodywork demands a gas mig welder for anyone without LOTS of welding experience.  I got a free VW hood from the scrap heap at the local auto wrecker and took it home with a borrowed mig welder.  I blew uncountable numbers of holes in the poor thing.  It looked like a Texas stop sign when I was finished.  I've decided to glue most of my panels on my VW van.  You should try it, especially for non load bearing stuff like floor panels,  it works great!

Hey Stan, what year's your van?  Over the years I've owned a '62, '66, '67 '68,  and '86 (still got the '86 Vanagon westfalia). And countless beetles.
Why don't you come down and buy my '73 bug from me? It comes complete with a 'roid rod to hang from the rear view mirror. But you'll have to tow it because mice at the wiring. sigh...

I did quite a lot of welding on the '66 van, and it was VERY difficult metal to weld. I don't know why, or what it's made of, but I found it to be very unfriendly to weld.

Steve
Steve

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Stan

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2008, 04:49:39 PM »
Hi Steve...All good advice and unfortunately it still adds up to "Quality Matters".  I am however going to investigate this little Lincoln Weld-Pak 100, if it's available in Canada that is.  ???

I've been a beatle guy since 1972, and have gone through 4 of them in continuous daily driving right up until a couple of years ago.  I've owned 2 1974 Vans, this second one  is a westfalia, but needs a lot of body work.  I've got a professionally rebuilt 2L dual carb engine sitting in it but I can't drive it because it needs so much work I'd never get it approved.  It was junked, and free (I call her "Freebird", notice my taste in music).

Stan


Tom

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2008, 05:34:31 PM »
As a bottom feeder  ;D I've got an el cheap'o 120V century wire feed welder that was given to me. The guy that had it could not get a good weld from it because he was using solid core wire with no gas.  ??? I built the frame for my gen set with it. It's constructed with 4" channel iron and 1/4" wall square tube. So far so good no cracks.



The nice thing about this little welder is that the lister will power it. I do have to patient with it when welding heavy iron as the duty cycle is pretty short, however I found if i turned up the voltage by adjusting the governor up a bit the duty cycle is drastically improved.  :o Your mileage may vary. The common flux core wire sizes are .23, .35 and .45 and by changing sizes you can do quite a range of thickness. Most of the replacement parts needed are in the cable and tip and this unit has a common Twico tip that makes parts easy to find.
Tom
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xyzer

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 01:38:46 AM »
Welding body panels........don't try and just run one long bead .... make short ones and move around...the thin tin can't dissapate heat fast enough...works for me anyway
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mobile_bob

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 02:59:53 AM »
having welded with all sorts of machines, here is my take

stay away from the flux cored units, yes they cheaper and don't require gas
but they are basically stick welders that use tiny rods

for doing the body panels you want a gas mig,

recently i picked up a hobart handler 130 with blown rectifiers for 70 bucks
32 dollars for a pair of easily replacable silicon rectifiers and it is up and running
using mixed gas it is probably the nicest light guage gas mig i have ever used. it is a 120volt machine

the flux cored machines will do the job, but the needed chipping and cleanup is a pain in the rear on sheet metal
the gas shielded migs are a dream in comparison.

if you look around you can find nice used millermatics that run off of 220 for under a grand, i have seen them for far less
today on craiglist there is a 220 volt machine for 450bucks,,, you just can't go wrong with one of those.

i have no idea what your budget is, but you would be far better served to spend a bit more on a good miller, linde/ltech/esab, hobart
or lincoln machine,, although the lincolns usually bring more money an in my opinion aren't worth the premium.

a good gas mig will be the last welder you will ever buy, and likely will be the machine you use the most.

tig has its place and for some things it is the best way to go,, but for a first machine that is very versatile go with the mig.

next

use a good mixed gas when welding steel, linde/praxair used to sell a product called stargon which was a proprietary mix
and made for beautiful welds

don't skimp on cheap wire either, new machines come with an e2 wire, which is adequate for very clean well prepared steel
a step up to an e6 rated wire which is allowed makes for great welds on less than nice steel, rusty, scaley stuff
the price differential is about 15% more,, so in the scheme of things it isn't much more to pay for what you get.

i bought a linde 225 mig back in 1983, it cost me around 1700 bucks back then and i have used up several 44 lb spools of wire in it
and it still works as well as it did the day i bought it, it will weld sheet metal all the way to 3/4" plate in a single pass (properly prepared of course
in spray arc mode) and it was the best investment i ever made in a tool bar none.

a few years ago a friend of mine picked up a miller onan powered ac/dc 250amp welder, complete with a spool gun (mig aluminum or steel)
complete with 100 ft of leads, torch, bottles and hose real on a trailer for 750 bucks! i used it with the spool gun and found it to be a fantastic
machine.
and yes i did everything i could to try and talk him out of the setup :)

if you look around you will find some really nice deals on used machines,, don't shy away from a larger unit 220volt
you will end up with a machine that will do so much more than the economy 120 volt units that you buy at the box stores
and last you the rest of your life,,, and probably never lose a dime on it either when you are old and want to sell it.

bob g

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listeroidsusa1

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 03:19:46 AM »
Check out your local and state surplus auctions regularly. I bought a Miller SMW 440 welder for $77. I bought it as a pig in a poke and knew that if it didn't work it was worth at least $300 in scrap copper. Once I got it to the shop all I found wrong with it was that the amp adjusting knob has a loose setscrew. 5 minutes later it was running like a new machine. The DC makes beautiful welds too. The government would rather spend your hard earned money on new equipment rather than doing basic maintenance on the equipment they already have.

Eco Diesel

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 04:01:14 AM »
Hi everyone!
My dad purchased a Linclon buzz box (AC) stick welder when I was about 13 years old. That was what I learned on. It was an almost evil piece of equipment which really only laid a decent bead with 7018 rod in the flat position on 3/16" and thicker. It seemed no matter what type of rod, style, method or technique I used would give me real nice results. I probably used spent enough money on grinding wheels that I could have more than made up the price difference to have gotten something much better. My father built a trailer to haul mine and my buddys dirt bikes to the riding areas with it and I built one trailer for myself years later + a deck railing for my home in Creston BC. Years back I worked for a company called Victory Equipment (no longer around) and the shop had 6 or more high production Miller Migs. I got to use these to make my drill jigs and what not. There were a few welders there that laid absolutly beautyfull welds on 1" thick frame brackets and I was always in awe of how they did that (I still had the Lincoln at home but I couldn't make welds with it like I was seeing at Victory) I have used a DC stick welder on numerous occasions and can say that it was a much more pleasuable experience. The DC Stick would strick/light up far better and I I can only describe as being much smoother while laying bead.  About 11 years ago, I purchased my Miller matic 250 mig welder for $2500.00 + Gst. This model was considered to be a high end garage welder so I was told by the Air Liquide staff. I have been production welding dead blow hammers in small production runs for 11 years with it (around 20,000 hammers) plus have used it on all the other projects like deck railings, trailers, Listeroid stuff etc. The only thing I have replaced on it is the feed cables inner liner. Of course I have probably gone through 40 or more brass tips and one brass end nossle (my fault for tapping to hard over the years to get rid of spatter build up) I also own 2 of the smaller blue shield bottles and am amazed as to how much welding I can do before I have to switch to the other. I use .030 wire for 1/16" on up to 1/2" steel with excellent results and if you need to weld outside you can get a different set of rollers, liner and tips so as to use flux core wire. You can use a spool gun with it and weld aluminum or even weld stainless with stainless wire. You can use C02 shielding gas or blue shield which is a mix of Argon and C02. The blue sheld costs a little more but produces a cleaner looking weld. The 250 model has since been replaced with a 251 model and I have heard also heard great things about it from people who have bought them.  I would highly recommend one of the smaller Miller migs to anyone looking for a single do it all welder. They use to offer a slightly smaller Miller matic 185 which was less money and would probably serve you just great. Once you have a welder you will find yourself diving into more projects just because you now can. I personaly have no financial or commercial interest in the Miller company, products etc but gladly welcome the Miller welding company to send me moneys for my testamony should they feel I am worthy.

Troy

Eco Diesel

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 04:21:41 AM »
I agree with Mobile Bob, If you could find a used Miller in decent shape you would be far better off than if you went with a new Princess Auto cheepy. About 7 years back I had an oportunity to buy a like new but used Miller 185 for $1000.00 and I didn't because I allready had my 250. You can easily get parts for them to keep going which counts for alot when something does go wrong. I am still waiting for the day when my trigger swich fails. With as many on/off pulls as I have made with this Mig gun trigger (14 on/offs per hammer) Thats 280,000 on/offs + all who knows how many on/off pulls when welding other stuff. I am amazed it hasn't failed yet!

Troy

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Re: Welding for a dummy
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 04:32:27 AM »
go with the 75/25 gas flux core is nasty., try to go .023 with the wire roller and liner. if you try .035 on 16 ga or thinner you will find that if all edges are not preped perfect you will back up and pop.