Removing the camshaft from a 6/1 'roid

[MacGyver]

MacGyver:

Remove you Piston and make sure your ring lands are clean and the inside the othe grudgeon pin is clean. There is probably as much abrasive from the grining process asn sand in your engine.

Consider any part that was ground full of abrasive.

More info later......

Yeah, I've seen enough already to know that this thing needs a thorough cleaning before it's run.  This afternoon I'll try and lift the cylinder off the beast and remove the piston and rod. I think I'd like to run a hone down that cylinder too while it's off. It looks like someone shoved a hone in it, ran it up and down the bore once and called it done. So much for a nice 45 degree crosshatch...
Actually it looks way better in this photo than it does in person.
http://sweetwatergems.weirdstuffwemake.com/geek/images/lister_2099.jpg


Steve

[Doug]

Well honing at least isn't such a big deal.....

I think you going to find it all just comes down to a proper cleaning and set up.

The " Red oil " is very interesting. It would apear that all these engines are shipped over from India with a thick red engine oil. At first I thought this was some sort of assembly lube untill I found that India brass works sells diesel oil that is dyed red. I have no idea what the tech is on this product but I would sure like to know what htis viscosity, and API rating of the oil is.

[Stan]

Never been there Doug, but with all that we've read I doubt if they give a hoot about ratings.  Heck, I'd bet if they could get hold of enough gorilla snot to use and it was slippery enough they'd use it. 
Stan

[lendusaquid]

That oil looks pretty clean to me.At the moment i have a endless supply of snot if you want some, cough,splutter. And stan when are you going to post some pics of your engine ?.

[M61hops]

Well, at least the hone was still turning when they pulled it out so the scratches weren't verticle!  Your photos are great, please keep them coming!                                                                   Leland

[Doug]

Stan understanding the oil they use would indicate if detergents are an issue or not.

Just an example....

[rbodell]

Stan understanding the oil they use would indicate if detergents are an issue or not.

Just an example....

You sure it isn't 120 HP?
http://www.n-connect.net/benetton/fairbanks.html

[Stan]

Lend....re: pics of the "new" engine.......I'm awaiting the moment of the great unveiling!  I'll need a magnum of Champaign to swing against her nose. (I forget, which end is the nose?)
Stan

Actually my biggest worry at the moment is the small bolts and pins that make up the governor setup.  Some of them are quite loosey goosey and that won't do, will it now?

[sid]

nope// 150 hp/ 17 tons///sid

[MacGyver]

Well, I had an adventurous day today disassembling the new 6/1 'roid.
I'm note sure I like some of the things I found.

The most worrisome was the discovery of a folded gasket under the cylinder block. Like someone is trying to shim up a crooked cylinder or something....

Well, after a bit of measuring I've learned a bit about why the cylinder had a folded gasket under one side of it.

I cleaned the paint and bondo off of the surface that the cylinder sits on and then measured from that surface down to the top of the hole that the crankshaft main bearing housing fits in, and there was a difference of 0.011" between the 2 sides. The side with the cam gear was 5.125" and the other side was 5.136"!
That's not good...

The cylinder had 4 gaskets under it. 3 of them were orange and measured aprox 0.018" thick each, and the fourth one was the folded yellow gasket on top. It measured 0.006", and folded over it makes 0.012", which is about how much the cylinder deck surface on the block is off.

The other thing was that the tapered roller bearings were set up way to tight. It was kind of hard to turn the crank by hand even with the piston, rod, and cam were out of the block. Once I loosened up the nuts on one of the bearing housings, then it got really easy to turn. There was obviously less than zero end clearance on those bearings.

How much misalignment can tapered roller bearings take?  If the bearing bores are parallel, but one is 0.011" higher than the other ...?
Or maybe the bores are straight and square with each other and it's only the cylinder deck surface that's crooked. (I think I'd like that better)

I added some photos of the innards to this page:
http://sweetwatergems.weirdstuffwemake.com/geek/listeroid6-1.html

I need to do some more measuring and think about this for a while.

Steve

[Doug]

You have found nothing new.

You can true up the deck and block to match or use the 1/2 gaskets.

Jack had a tight set of TRB's just like you so hemachined a little reliefei nto them.

Nothing here you can't fix.

Its not perfect but its hardly a write off.
I believe a lot of the machining problems are due to wornout tooling or something since these are the same problems over and over.

At last report with a little effort Jack had several thousand hours on his PS kit engine ( after he made repairs ) and it was showing no signs of trouble.

[MacGyver]

Well, yeah, I know I haven't found anything new.
 I bought Georges CD and read all the websites I could find, plus a big chunk of this forums posts before I ever plunked my cash down fro a 'roid.

And I don't consider it a write off at all! It'll just take more time, and probably more money to get it all sorted out.

I just wish I HAD more time and money is all...

If it's just the cylinder deck that's crooked, I'm not too worried. Possible misalignment of the roller bearings makes me a little queasy though.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by  "Jack had a tight set of TRB's just like you so hemachined a little reliefei nto them."

What did he machine? to add relief where?

Thanks!

Steve

[xyzer]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by  "Jack had a tight set of TRB's just like you so hemachined a little reliefei nto them."

What did he machine? to add relief where?

Thanks!

Steve

The TRB's  preload are adjusted by adding or subtracting gaskets between the bearing caps and the crankcase.
Lots of things can be off on these critters.....

Dave

[M61hops]

I've heard it said that TRB's will take "quite a bit of misalignment" but I'm not sure what that means.  11 thousandths over the width of the crankcase is only a little out of square if the difference is in the crank bearing holes.  That's probably close enough for long life; at least the Indians would say so.  Maybe you could move the bearings up or down a few thou if they mount in the removeable bearing carrier that holds the seal and used to hold the old style bush type bearings.  I haven't had my 6/1 apart yet but it looks like the bearings mount in holes in the crankcase.  I guess you could call it a feature of these engines in that you can make them run and last at least for a while by folding a gasket over to get the proper fit.  A farmer in India probably wouldn't bother to check if the piston was parallel to the cylinder wall or if the bearings were too tight and yet they must get what they consider an acceptable lifespan from them?  I would think that a listeroid is a big investment for a third world farmer; I wonder how many crops/years they expect to get from an engine that they take out of the crate and run?  I'd think if they didn't get at least a few seasons from a new engine that they would raise hell with the dealer.  I suspect that most of these understressed engines will provide at least a couple thousand hours of service right out of the box.  What ever problems that show up down the road from grit or poor fit must be fixed by the farmer or the local mechanic who knows all the trick fixes.  I wonder if they fix them or junk 'em and buy another if the cam idler gear breaks and wipes out the cam and crank gears and screws up the governer parts?  If I ever get to spend time in India I hope I can talk with some users to find out things like this!  I've worked as both a machinist and a mechanic so I have my own ideas about what is "right" and what is "rinky-dink" about engines.  Like most people on this forum I would prefer my 'roid to be as right as possible but since I bought it used with unknown hours I'm going to run it until it breaks and then go through it to make it "right".  I hope that will be a while yet.  Good luck on yours and keep up the good work!                                          Leland

[rbodell]

I would think that a listeroid is a big investment for a third world farmer; I wonder how many crops/years they expect to get from an engine that they take out of the crate and run?  I'd think if they didn't get at least a few seasons from a new engine that they would raise hell with the dealer.  I suspect that most of these understressed engines will provide at least a couple thousand hours of service right out of the box.  What ever problems that show up down the road from grit or poor fit must be fixed by the farmer or the local mechanic who knows all the trick fixes.  I wonder if they fix them or junk 'em and buy another if the cam idler gear breaks and wipes out the cam and crank gears and screws up the governer parts?  If I ever get to spend time in India I hope I can talk with some users to find out things like this!  I've worked as both a machinist and a mechanic so I have my own ideas about what is "right" and what is "rinky-dink" about engines.  Like most people on this forum I would prefer my 'roid to be as right as possible but since I bought it used with unknown hours I'm going to run it until it breaks and then go through it to make it "right".  I hope that will be a while yet.  Good luck on yours and keep up the good work!                                          Leland

I bet they last a lot longer than we would expect. I also think that they have "real" mechanics over there who fix things, rather than just parts changers.