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Author Topic: Listeroid base Q...  (Read 14733 times)

Grael

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Listeroid base Q...
« on: January 27, 2008, 09:13:35 PM »
Hi all,

OK, sometime in the near future we (my dad & I) are gonna get a 6/1 Listeroid from Troy at ecodiesel. I was wondering what would be the best base/foundation? I was thinking of taking a rail road tie, cutting it into 2 3ft lengths then getting another 2 ties about 5-6ft long then lying them on top of the 3ft lengths (perpendicularly) then bolting them together. Then burying the setup in the ground level to the top of the tie. Then get some heavy duty channel iron, bolt the channel iron to the tie, then bolt the engine to the iron.

I dunno if this will work, just thinking. I don't want to use concrete, so thats out. What do you all have? Pictures help too. ;D

>end ramble<
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Doug

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2008, 09:23:14 PM »
How much trouble would it be to make a block? Since you already are going to make a shed make a block and floor.

If you get some vibration without a solid foundation then you risk having the bolts in the wood loosen.

If your going top ballance to and blue print the roid you may get along just fine without the foundation block.
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Grael

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 09:40:39 PM »
How much trouble would it be to make a block? Since you already are going to make a shed make a block and floor.

If you get some vibration without a solid foundation then you risk having the bolts in the wood loosen.

If your going top ballance to and blue print the roid you may get along just fine without the foundation block.

Dad doesn't want to mess with concrete...
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Stan

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 09:41:39 PM »
Middle.....My thoughts are that pouring a ton of concrete and bolting the engine to it "may" be better (more on that later) but it sure is a whole lot more expensive, and harder to do.  Our concrete people want a whole lot more for small  loads like that than if you order an entire 5 yard truck load.  Plus there's the digging, forming, rebarring etc. etc.

I chose to go first, with the wood route, and then if that shows signs of breaking down I'll go the concrete route.  My Lister 6/1 was mounted on 4x4's for 40 years and when I picked her up from the demolished engine shed (with a backhoe)  out in the field (she had no exhaust so they put her waaay out in a field for organic noise abatement) the 4x4's literally fell off her from the rot in them.

I have 2, 6x6 tamarack (you should know what that wood is like up there in N. Alberta) beams 4 feet long with 2,  4x4 cross beams bolted together to form the basic support.  2 of the bolts that hold the cross beams on are "engine" bolts which go right through the wood and up into the engine mounting holes.  The other 2 "engine bolts are 8" long and go right through the beam.  I welded large washers on the bolt heads, drilled 2 holes in them.  I then routed out a 3" hole 1" deep in the bottom of the beams and screwed in the washers so the bolts will remain in place when I drop the engine on them and tighten them down.

One of the advantages of using wood is that it is forgiving.  If you bolt your engine to concrete or even large metal beams and they are not perfectly flat, your engine bolt hole flanges will be stressed and could break eventually due to vibration. It is possible to "shim" then but even then I'd be leery of getting it right.   The wood will "give" before the cast iron engine base will.

That being said,, I am pouring a new floor for the shed she will be sitting in next summer, and will mount bolts in the floor so I can bolt down the wooden base when I lift her down in there after the concrete has cured.  The only problem with putting her in the shed is that it is 4 feet lower than the garage floor and getting her out if I want to take her to a show will be a PITA.
Stan
btw...welcome to the forum....I think you'll find Troy pretty good to deal with.  He's always been there for me with free advice and parts when I needed them.


Doug

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 09:52:07 PM »
There is a thread on shimming and grouting foundations for engines worth the read to learn how its done....

middle of nowhere :

Consider this then, buy a Chinese hopper cooled engine witht he ballance shaft. It won't need a foundation. Later you can move onto a roid. The Chinese engines are also cheaper, and you will have a back up unit if the roid chokes on a chunk of sand.

Mixing a yard of Concrete by hand isn't all that bad Its even easier if you have a portable mixer.
Maybe you don't need a full yard after all thats been a source of debate if you have a very heavy frame or bed plate.

Quick recap on the foundation block and grout:
Pour block and set J bolts ( gauge bolts are even better if you can find them )
Place engine frame/bedplate and shim and level with steel wedges.
Make a damb around the top of the block and pour the grout.
Torque the bed plate down when the grout is set.
Your done no fuss or worry if your grout and use good bolts it will never move and nothing will flex or crack.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Grael

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 10:03:03 PM »
Off topic:

Does anyone think my lil Jetta could make a run down to Lethbridge (~1000KM) with a trailer and get a roid and haul it back? ??? :P
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dieseldave

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 10:15:28 PM »

    Best way is to bolt wooden beams together with 1/2 inch or bigger ready rod. Instead of washers behind the nuts,run a continuous piece of angle iron to distribute the force of the nuts clamping the wood together.

     Like you said,going to put channel iron across the top to mount the engine.  Do the same underneath. Drill the holes and insert the bolts into the channel underneath and weld them in place. This will 'clamp' the wood together. I woul;d avoid the use of flat washers as after a time vibration will sink them into the wood.

    I have a similar setup on a 24/2 using 4x4 fence posts. EVERTHING is clamped together using ready rod and angle iron or 4 inch channell. It is a lot queter than an all steel mounting system!

Doug

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 10:21:08 PM »
Personaly I'd pay the 200 bucks for a shipper, call "Apex" for a quote they have been good for me.

Think about the hastle of trying to drive 1000 km in a 90 hp car towing a ton of stuff in winter. A flat or break down can cost you a lot more than shipping. How is the road lots of hills?

I've never towed with my 05....

Ask that fellow you buying from if he can get you a deal on shipping he may know some good people. He may even know someone with a truck that makes runs your way if you can wait for a few weeks.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

dieseldave

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 10:22:18 PM »
Trailer it back with your Jetta? Why not!  Small trailer(400lbs)+ 6/1(600lbs) = 1000lbs. If your Jetta is a diesel,no problemo! ;D  Even if it was a gasser,it would be no problem. ;)

Stan

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 10:25:07 PM »
It's not like you have to go up any hills or anything like we have here in BC.  (7 mountain passes on the way to Vancouver!)
Stan

Doug

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 10:36:35 PM »
18 year old Jetta driven by a 16 year old towing a trailer in winter with a Listeroid.

And I'm the only one who thinks that a freight forwarder is the less atractive option?

No offence middle of nowhere but that's a long drive in an old car what does your dad think?

At least get a co-pillot.....
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

oliver90owner

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 10:46:26 PM »
Dunno what an 'oid weighs, but the original CS weighed in at 457kg with a radiator (just over a 1000 pounds).  If you are going for a lighting set you may wish to consider the heavy flywheels at another couple hundred pounds or so extra.  Gonna get the genny while you are at it?  You may be towing a tonne behind you (don't even consider a small unbraked trailer).  Get it shipped.  Quicker, cheaper and safer (as long as it is properly crated).  My 2p worth.
Regards, RAB

Grael

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 10:48:13 PM »
Personaly I'd pay the 200 bucks for a shipper, call "Apex" for a quote they have been good for me.

Think about the hastle of trying to drive 1000 km in a 90 hp car towing a ton of stuff in winter. A flat or break down can cost you a lot more than shipping. How is the road lots of hills?

I've never towed with my 05....

Ask that fellow you buying from if he can get you a deal on shipping he may know some good people. He may even know someone with a truck that makes runs your way if you can wait for a few weeks.


I talked to Troy and he gave me a quote, try about $360 for shipping + GST and they don't even bring it all the way, nearest place is Grassland which is ~40KM away. Then figure out how to get it off the truck on to our truck. There are a few hills, but nothing to worry about, I can go in 4th for a while if I need to power up a hill. I'm not worried about a flat tire, I have spares, a bottle jack, tire iron, and a snipe. Also the tires are new winter tires. :D

18 year old Jetta driven by a 16 year old towing a trailer in winter with a Listeroid.

And I'm the only one who thinks that a freight forwarder is the less atractive option?

No offence middle of nowhere but that's a long drive in an old car what does your dad think?

At least get a co-pillot.....

Well, I have put almost 20,000KM on it since August, drive almost daily on one of Alberta's deadliest highways, Highway 63. I go to Edmonton on a regular basis and it usually takes a whole day. I do know my limits and my car's, If I get tired I pull off and get something to drink/eat then continue. If I were to go myself I'd leave early, get there sometime in the afternoon, load the engine up, then spend the night there, then leave early the next morning... I dunno yet, we're still deciding...might go with the truck...
GTC 8-1

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mobile_bob

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 11:18:27 PM »
if it were me,, i would beg, borrow, rent or steal a hd pickup,, (a real pickup!) 3/4 ton minimum.

funny how this topic just popped up, i just read yesterday in one of our automotive trade journals

in the 1970's  seventy percent of automobiles sold in this country were rated to tow 2100lbs

today in 2008 the number is a staggering 1% that are rated to pull 2100lbs!!!

i am thinking the little jetta just ain't up to the task,, it may very well pull the load, but that is the easy part
the tough part is that ton or better shoving you around corners, down hills and worst of all
shoving you into a corner while going down hill!

brakes are another issue, the little car's brakes are probably adequate to tow and stop on relatively level ground
especially if you plan ahead,,, but coming down a long decline they will overheat and fade out,,, then the fun begins!

the last thing you want going "through" your mind is the listeroid!  if you get my drift?

and lastly,, why not go for a s195 or 1115 changfa?
for the life of me i cannot understand the advantages of a listeroid over that of the changfa's

1. quieter? ok yes,, but that can be rectified
2. slower speed? yes,, but that is not always an advantage
3. longer life?  maybe,,, but that is yet to be proven
4. cool factor?, ok i will give you that one

for every advantage the listeroid has over the changfa,
changfa has a half dozen advantages over the listeroid!

i just don't get it?  :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

ronmar

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Re: Listeroid base Q...
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 11:36:11 PM »
A crated 6/1 is going to be closer to 800 LB.  Plus a trailer that is going to haul half a ton, that is quite a load for a small car.  Have you thought about renting a truck?  It dosn't have to be a particularly large truck.  I drove 250 miles one way to pickup my 6/1 and hauled it and a ST-5 generator home in a Toyota 4X4 pickup.  I uncrated it in the back, and lifted off the engine with a engine hoist in my garage.

As for a base, 2000 pounds of concrete(Thirty Three 60# bags, or about $60 worth on sale) is not that hard to mix up, especially if you rent a mixer for the day.  IF you are going to bolt together and bury railroad ties, you should probably completely drill thru them and bolt them together with all-thread and steel backing plates as lag screws will loosen with the vibration.  I personally would prefer a welded structure. 

An intriguing idea I read about on this forum was a large steel box with the welded frame on top.  The box was then filled with sand.  Dry sand(packed) weighs about 100-105 pounds per cubic foot.  A 5' X 4' X 2' box would contain 2000# of sand, plus the weight of the box structure...  Need to move it, dig out the sand.

Ron 
PS 6/1 - ST-5.