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Author Topic: Start o Matic Lister generators  (Read 30032 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2006, 07:04:12 AM »
Start o matic,
American style? I wanted to put the chevy flex plate on the generator shaft, but the 15KW ST gen head was too big in diameter. With the starter lying along side the generator, the starter gear wouldn't make it to the ring gear. Maybe the smaller 5KW machine would work? I ended up mounting the flexplate / ring gear on the engine crankshaft, but the reduction at the generator would have been better.
Now Darren suggests a sprag clutch from the starter motor to drive the belt tension idler...I didn't want to use an idler, but there is merit in the idea. Anyway, if we make Listeroid Start-o-matics, we have to adapt from local materials. Just my take.
  I have been keeping an eye on the 'otherpower dot com' site, wind power and all that. The Pemanent Magnet Generators they build are most interesting. They wind thier own coils, and used super magnets to make very effective wind generators. Alternators actually. Some are 3 phase machines, one shifts from Star to Delta for efficiency. They rectify the AC on the ground and charge battery banks. To them, frequency doesn't matter. wind speed and line resistance do.
We could design direct connected alternators that are more efficient than ST heads (80%?) by following thier lead. 2 pole alternators turn 3600 RPM, 10 pole units turn 720 RPM. Choices are 600 RPM, 720 RPM, 900 RPM.  Build a unit that fits on the crankshaft, or coupled direct. Be creative.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

solarguy

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2006, 12:59:29 PM »
The nice folks at www.otherpower.com have also built a direct drive hand wound permanent magnet alternator with one of the nifty mini-Lister/Petter diesels.  If I recall correctly, they had both a 12V nominal output for charging a battery and a nominal 120AC output for general whatnot use.  They were pretty happy with the result and I have to admit, it was a cute little thing.

One of the often mentioned drawbacks to the PMA (Permanent Magnet Alternator) solution is the inability to adjust output by varying the field.  The magnetic field is of course not adjustable.

Finest regards,

troy

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2006, 11:20:11 PM »
I suppose a hybrid would be in order?
How about permanent Magnets plus booster windings based on load current?
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Doug

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2006, 02:55:36 AM »
I guess it could be done.....
The trouble is you want as even a magnetic density as possible across the pole face, placing a PM in the pole will probably cause the density to change at different areas in the Iron and this might actualy cause you more heat and iron losses in the core. I guess the other option might be to use an alloy like Permalloy that has a high coercive force that would act a little like a PM magnet and hold flux, but then you need to put more current than you would with a normal alloy like 2 3/4 si steel (relay steel also called Dynamo special) to induce the same flux.

I think its far more trouble than its worth.
A French company named Lerroy Sommer used to make a head that used a booster coil from the stator output to increase the pilot exciter current as load increased. I guess this could be adapted to an ST head but I know this won't do what you ask, you ( we all ) want something for nothing.....

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2006, 10:31:29 PM »
It's just that I was looking at diesel motorcycles while this forum was down yesterday.
German DYI'rs put HATZ 2 cyl diesels in Ural and Dnepr sidecar rigs. (I have a Ural). So I went to the Hatz site. They have a small 'not for USA' genset with no touching / rubbing parts. I don't think it even has a bearing. Very short. Very Cool. Claimed 92% efficiency. I'd like some of that technology on the end of my Listeroid.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

trigzy

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2006, 10:41:54 PM »
Other than a bearing - a nice brushless gen-head gets rid of all the rubbing/touching components, and still has variable field exciting & output voltage.

Of course, it has some semi-conductors which moves away from the "stone knives & bearskins" simplicity, but that's nothing compared to the guys talking about PLC's and microprocessor controls.

Specs on brushless units that I have seen claim eff in the 85-89% range based on kW size of unit.


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2006, 01:46:56 AM »
How odd that I would shun the diode for the slip ring yet embrace the PLC?

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2006, 07:10:28 AM »
Doug,
          It's probably the fact, that like all of us, you wouldn't be able to trust a machine ever again.  What if traffic lights just went green in both directions, or elevators started moving with the door open............ the world would be a scary place if you couldn't trust PLC's.....and I'm sure there's lots more examples of stuff even more dangerous than that.

Diodes and MOV's are easy things to distrust, but that's only because they take the "first hit" in all sorts equipment for over-voltages, surges etc etc.


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2006, 01:59:19 AM »
I don't trust traffic lights.....

Who inspects the wiring on traffic lights????
No one did for 20 years according to an inspector I know. Grounding and bonding can be quite creative when no one looks over your shoulder (Think about that the next time you reach to push the cross walk button lol). 

I think we should mention to all these fine fellows that if your a mistrustful type you still can buy all kinds of timers, relays and do mosty anything you need in hard wire if you like. I've seen nothing mentioned here that I couldn't wire the old school way

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2006, 02:04:16 AM »
Doug,
      You're right - for the most part - not inspected.  From what I've heard, here in Ontario, ESA wants to start to inspect work done by all the small utility contractors.....and I've even heard that they want to inspect all of Hydro One's distribution and transmission equipment.   I think they'd have to hire every electrician in the province as an inspector though, so I dont think it'll happen anytime soon.  I heard that the small contractors could be subject to inspection within a year though.

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2006, 02:19:48 AM »
They should and they should be fined for shoddy work.

I just repaired a wheel chair lift for an old fellow up my street wired by 'Some Guy" who sells these things out in the valley. No inspection and clearly not a lift intetnded to be used in the rain and snow.
This makes me very angery to see potentialy dangerous wiring and poor dishonest sales people get away with screwing the little guy.

ESA needs more inspectors and major fines needs to nailed on contractors who fail to do their jobs right or simple are not qualified.

I had a clown today show up at my mine to Trouble shoot a crane that wasn't an electrcian. I didn't call him my boss did. The contractor never listened to me(even when he was my aprentice years ago) and now I have to change all the parameters on the drives for the crane because he didn't understand why I changed them (they were burning out the brakes by trying to decel the motors to far). Nor did he have the brains to find out a Nema T 213 motor has about 30% more power than a Nema U( pre 1962 motor design spec ) so I also have to retune the  bloody drives....

Bugger I'm still ranting.

ESA good, for that matter any inspector who knows his trade!
Clowns , Baffoons and Scam Artists are bad and the laws don't serve to punish these people or force them out of the trades.

Doug

trigzy

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2006, 02:33:57 AM »
Doug,

         Isn't that how the gov't fills the "hole" of qualified trades people???   MORE APPRENTICESHIPS??? BAH!!! We'll just make it easier for non-qualified people to do the work....

Ever seen Holmes on Homes?   (TV show)  He goes around fixing other "contractors" mistakes.... it's quite interesting.


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2006, 03:50:33 AM »
Yup I've seen Holmes on Homes, and he's right.

I shudder to think just how many contracted jobs have been turned into "traps" with the potential to injur and or bleed the pocket books of people in this country, not just because of a lack of skilled people but lack of pride in ones work.

Doug

t19

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Re: Start o Matic Lister generators
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2006, 12:05:26 PM »
Yup I've seen Holmes on Homes, and he's right.

I shudder to think just how many contracted jobs have been turned into "traps" with the potential to injur and or bleed the pocket books of people in this country, not just because of a lack of skilled people but lack of pride in ones work.

Doug
Sorry I have to totally disagree with you on Holmes on Homes.  It is FREAKING SCARY!!!!!!  Interresting is what I find on the Adult channels :)
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...