Rocker lubrication

[jens]

removed

[oliver90owner]

Jens, you say:
Since I can't see how grease could get between the rocker shaft and the rocker arm bushing, I am a bit confused

Question: Did the rocker gear wear out on the Lister CS? Answer: No

So why change? If grease was all right with no problems then, what has changed now?  Are these fittings different from the time tested Lister originals?  If so, why?

Jens, you try to re-invent the wheel.  Grease is only oil, with a carrier (to retain it easily), so where is the problem?  That grease cap should be able to force grease into the gap at quite a high pressure.  now understanding that modern -day lubricants are so much more advanced than back in the thirties, there should be no issue with the KISS principle. 

An alternative might be an automatic greaser fitted so you can leave it running for 24/7 without any attention for a week at a time.

Regards, RAB

[captfred]

Morning Jens

I "helped" the grease along by removing the brass cap and dabbing grease into the cup and "packing" it into the tube with my thumb (kinda like packing a wheel bearing with grease). After a bit had grease coming out the top holes.  Repacked the brass cups and give em a turn once in a while then repack as required - seems to work pretty good.

Cheers, Fred

[bitsnpieces1]

  Grease is actually a carrier for the oil that does the lubing.  Early greases were simply clay saturated with oil.  The idea is that the oil will slowly wick out of the carrier into the bearing space, same idea with using felt to hold oil that slowly wicks out.  You don't actually need the grease to penetrate the bearing space just be really, really close to it.  Going with that idea it might be suitable to remove the grease cup and replace with a cup containing felt/fibers (like cotton waste) and just re-saturate as needed. 

[listeroidsusa1]

We've been here before. The easiest, most simple, and effective automatic rocker oiling is to simply take a cotton string, such as from a mop, and tie it to the rocker shaft. Let the end of the string dangle in the oil recess around the valve springs. Oil will be wicked up the string and will keep the shaft wet with oil. Its a simple, easy, and foolproof way to ensure automatic oiling of the rocker shaft. I've been doing it this way for years and it works.

[JohnF13]

Some of my engines have grease cups, some not.   On longer running engines I have found that the brass grease reservoir that screws onto the end of the rocker shaft can work loose and fly into the nether reaches of the gensed - always the darkest, dankest place there is!  For that reason alone I prefer heavy oil.  I oil my rockers every day (engine run 12-16 hours/day) with 140wt oil.  That works best for me, but as usual, YMMV.

[bitsnpieces1]

Some of my engines have grease cups, some not.   On longer running engines I have found that the brass grease reservoir that screws onto the end of the rocker shaft can work loose and fly into the nether reaches of the gensed - always the darkest, dankest place there is!  For that reason alone I prefer heavy oil.  I oil my rockers every day (engine run 12-16 hours/day) with 140wt oil.  That works best for me, but as usual, YMMV.

  I wonder how the spray-on type motorcycle chain lube would work.  It is pretty thick, clings like mad and is slippery as all getout. 

[ronmar]

slide the rocker arms outward and lightly coat the shaft with grease then re-install the rockers.  While the grease cup is removed, take a grease gun and holding it over the threaded port where the grease cup normaly resides, pump the shaft full of grease(untill it starts to come out of the holes on top of the rockers), then install the grease cup base.  Fill the grease cup with grease and screw it onto the base untill you start to see the grease in the top of the rockers move from pressure from the cup end.

Now IMO, this is good lube for an intermittently run/backup engine as the grease sets there and coats the parts all the time and helps to limit long term corrosion.  You should also occasionally clean out and refresh this grease as the oil/lube will leach out of it and it will leave dry gunk in the recesses.  An air gun should work to force grease out of the shaft, if it will still flow, if applied where the grease cup is normally installed(set a rag over the top of the rockers to contain the spray:))

Also IMO, for a daily run engine, you should probably use motor oil for the valve lube. You still need to make sure that there is adequate oil in the spring recesses and that the valve caps and rocker pads are getting adequate lube, so you are in there every day  driping some oil on the rocker pads anyway, as well as pushrods and lifters where grease is probably inappropriate.  By using oil in the rockers, it is getting fresh lube every day it is run.  Any excess that weeps out finds it's way down to the spring cups and keeps that oil level up as that oil wicks up and finds it's way down the valve guides and is consumed by the engine. 

I don't run daily, but I am using oil exclusively for top end lube, and will probably continue to do so unless I note wear or corrosion issues. I am going to build a better valve cover for mine with boots or brushes where the rockers and injector lineprotrude, to help limit dust intrusion so the oil coated surfaces on top of the head stay cleaner.  For now, I cover the head and pushrods and lifters with a rag when not running the engine

Listeroidusa1, the wick idea sounds interesting, and I have seen something similar used in other applications.  Where on the rocker shaft do you attach the wick, in amongst the springs?  This of course dosn't remove the need to make sure there is enough oil on the rocker pads/valve caps and of course down in the spring cups.

Ron       

[Quinnf]

It is _possible_ his rocker shaft wasn't drilled. 

From what I've read, the English Listers had oil holes in the rockers which the operator would lube with oil periodically with an oil can.  Most Indian engines have a grease cup on the end of the rocker shaft.  I don't recall whether David Edgington's book stated that grease cups appeared on later Listers, or whether that might have been an Indian innovation.  Turning the cup a half turn should force grease through the shaft and out the holes beneath each rocker arm, but only IF the rocker shaft was actually drilled.  It's an Indian engine, so anything's possible!  The former oiling holes on the rocker arms now serve as relief holes for excess grease to squeeze out. 

I suppose it might be good to mention that if the rocker shaft has only one hole drilled in it, the shaft should be rotated so the hole is pointing down at 6:00 because that is the side of the rocker shaft that bears the load each time the rocker arm depresses a valve stem.

Quinn

[ronmar]

It is _possible_ his rocker shaft wasn't drilled. 

From what I've read, the English Listers had oil holes in the rockers which the operator would lube with oil periodically with an oil can.  Most Indian engines have a grease cup on the end of the rocker shaft.  I don't recall whether David Edgington's book stated that grease cups appeared on later Listers, or whether that might have been an Indian innovation. 
Quinn

I have seen pics of original Listers with the brass cups protruding from the valve covers, so I think it was a lister mod on later engines and the indians just carried on with the current design. 

Grease may be more appropriate for the higher pressure application of the lifter to shaft, but since I am in there every time I run it to add oil to the caps, it is just as easy for me to oil the rockers also.  In fact, I have not added oil to the spring cups in a long time.  The excess from the rocker and valve cap oilings keeps them adequately filled so it works well.

I had thought at one time that it might be cool to extend the oil plumbing to the rockers with a drip tube above each rocker hole and a return pipe that carried the excess from the head back to the sump.  Unfortunatly this would add too much to the valve cups and increase oil consumption down the valve guides.  The good thing about running the oil across the head would be that the oil would get some heat added from the cylinder head, and a visual look at the oil dripping onto the rockers would indicate that the pump was moving oil.

Ron

[Quinnf]

Hi Ron,

I've thought about the same thing.  It's a mod that clearly doesn't need to be done, since these engines run so slow, but as you say, you could add oil from the oil pump line to the rockers and let it dribble all over everything.  Then, to return it to the crankcase, run a line from the CC up to the head with a ball/spring check valve (or PCV valve?) so that line sucks back when the piston rises on exhaust and compression strokes.  If the inlet of that line is placed at just the right level, it should suck all the oil back into the CC like my kids do sucking the last soda out of their glasss through  straws.  

Problem would be oil contamination.  A better fitting rockerbox lid would help there, and while you're at it, why not enclose the pushrods in sheet metal as well.  Where will it end?  

Quinn

[oliver90owner]

Quinn,

A better fitting rockerbox lid would help there, and while you're at it, why not enclose the pushrods in sheet metal as well.  Where will it end? 

Probably as a CD!!!  pressure fed bearings, enough crankshaft bearing area to hang on some super-heavy flywheels......

Regards, RAB

[Quinnf]

Right!  That's the beauty of these engines.  They're so darn simple and everything is so BIG and accessible, they stimulate the imagination to wonder, "What if . . ."

Problem is, you can play and play, but when you're done, you'd be better off to buy a Kubota from Surpluscenter.com and be done with it.

The ready availability of 50 year old engines in Britain that show no evidence of glaring design deficiencies after many years of use (and abuse) is evidence that many of the mods that we all wonder about aloud on this forum are unnecessary. 

Still, it's fun to wonder, "What if . . ."

Quinn

[buickanddeere]

   Is there a spot on the cylinder head and block. That if rifle drilled it would leave an oil drain passage from the rocker arm area back down to the crankcase?
   The only thing I like better about the Petters over the Listers is that they are a sealed and fully lubed engine.
   Now to figure out how to pressure lube the Lister push rod upper tips............................................

[ronmar]

Right!  That's the beauty of these engines.  They're so darn simple and everything is so BIG and accessible, they stimulate the imagination to wonder, "What if . . ."

Problem is, you can play and play, but when you're done, you'd be better off to buy a Kubota from Surpluscenter.com and be done with it.

The ready availability of 50 year old engines in Britain that show no evidence of glaring design deficiencies after many years of use (and abuse) is evidence that many of the mods that we all wonder about aloud on this forum are unnecessary. 

Still, it's fun to wonder, "What if . . ."

Quinn

Well some of us leave our mark on the world by improving things, and some by destroying things, and some by doing both... 

The crankcase suction idea sounds interesting though to control the oil height in the spring cups, I hadn't thought of that one...  If you did it right, you could have that oil go back down thru the bolt over the top of the cam bearing to drip oil there also...   

I also figured if I just wanted to warm up the oil some, I could pump it up into the cavity behind the fuel filtermount.  That cavity there on my 6/1 might make a handy fluid heater.  I think Hotater suggested that, and I think it would be good to get some more heat into the oil.   

Ron