Vegtable oil and the EPA, trying to take action.

[clytle374]

Well, the EPA like most of the other three letter abbreviated goverment agencies I have problems finding words to describe with other than four letters.

They are non elected with no accountability to the public.  Write rules to force no one to brake the intent of the rules, with zero regard for results.

For example this Aptera manafacture(look at the vehicle specs) had a prototype vehicle getting 230MPG on diesel, but emission rules don't allow for it.  Now there are going to build a expensive hybrid.  At 230MPG the emissions per mile would be extremely low, but cookie cutter rules don't allow it.

The only way to change rules like this are to publicly make them look bad.  Thanks to sites like reddit, we can do that.  Here is a link reddit.com: Vegetable oil is illegal as vehicle fuel. EPA's gestapo type rules, Goodbye inventors.
vote it up and get the word out.

[dieseldave]

   Only a very small percentage of people are going to go out and puchase the hardware needed to make'veg oil fuel'.  The GOVERNMENT should be more concerned about HEALTHCARE,POVERTY,HOUSING and above all A STEADY SUPPLY OF CRUDE OIL,without having to invade and TERRORIZE 3rd world countries!!!!

[clytle374]

Yes, but at the current price of diesel fuel cars can be built to run SVO,  not just conversions. 
Skip the chemical biodiesel process.

[Doug]

Gov Rules and Taxes are only for the little people to follow and pay Zeke, rememer that.......

Where I live there are no emmisions tests done on cars and trucks, they say its because outsiude of Metro Toronto there isn't as big a problem. If you ask me the real reason why in the largest city in the north we don't is too many people can see the real source of our local air polution problem heavy industry.

Its realy a lot easier to force change on the little guy because he can't do much about it. Big buisness spends a lot of money on politicians so obviously its the little guy who get squeezed first.
And while we are onthe subject why is it that the stationary exemption for CI engines stayed in for so long? I suspect its because there simply aren't many little guys with large industrial sized diesel plants or ships and trains if you can see where I am going.

The good people at the EPA ( and there are some good ones ) realy think they are doing some good and realy are trying to make the USA a better place. Amagine what things might be like today if nothing had ever been done at all.

A car that runs on VEG straight from the factory?
Thats a threat to the status quo.

Healhcare poverty and housing?
Come on who are you kidding Dave no one realy worries about the proles untill they rise up.
But on that Black day when you and I join that angery mass things might be very different.

[rbodell]

Well, the EPA like most of the other three letter abbreviated goverment agencies I have problems finding words to describe with other than four letters.

They are non elected with no accountability to the public.  Write rules to force no one to brake the intent of the rules, with zero regard for results.

For example this Aptera manafacture(look at the vehicle specs) had a prototype vehicle getting 230MPG on diesel, but emission rules don't allow for it.  Now there are going to build a expensive hybrid.  At 230MPG the emissions per mile would be extremely low, but cookie cutter rules don't allow it.

The only way to change rules like this are to publicly make them look bad.  Thanks to sites like reddit, we can do that.  Here is a link reddit.com: Vegetable oil is illegal as vehicle fuel. EPA's gestapo type rules, Goodbye inventors.
vote it up and get the word out.

Without any links to any EPA or other governmkent site, I have a pretty good idea that probably came from conspiracytheory.com and you know how how reliable that source is LOL.

Biodiesel is legal and I don't see how adding meethanol to it makes it any less dangerous to the environmkent. My guess is that biodiesel if probably more dangerous than WVO.

[clytle374]

Well, the EPA like most of the other three letter abbreviated goverment agencies I have problems finding words to describe with other than four letters.

They are non elected with no accountability to the public.  Write rules to force no one to brake the intent of the rules, with zero regard for results.

For example this Aptera manafacture(look at the vehicle specs) had a prototype vehicle getting 230MPG on diesel, but emission rules don't allow for it.  Now there are going to build a expensive hybrid.  At 230MPG the emissions per mile would be extremely low, but cookie cutter rules don't allow it.

The only way to change rules like this are to publicly make them look bad.  Thanks to sites like reddit, we can do that.  Here is a link reddit.com: Vegetable oil is illegal as vehicle fuel. EPA's gestapo type rules, Goodbye inventors.
vote it up and get the word out.

Without any links to any EPA or other governmkent site, I have a pretty good idea that probably came from conspiracytheory.com and you know how how reliable that source is LOL.

Biodiesel is legal and I don't see how adding meethanol to it makes it any less dangerous to the environmkent. My guess is that biodiesel if probably more dangerous than WVO.

Sorry I forgot some wouldn't understand how reddit works, I linked you to the comment page.  People vote from that page and the big link at the top takes you too the EPAs website.

So here is the conspiracy site(EPA home) http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/documents/factsheet-biodiesel.htm

It did quite well, lots of people couldn't believe it.  The point is it make no sense.  But here is how it looks too be.  If you made a diesel engine that ran on raw piss and the only emission was pure water, it would be illegal.

[rbodell]

So here is the conspiracy site(EPA home) http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/documents/factsheet-biodiesel.htm

I see I ruffled some feathers here. I see you consider questioning a source as a sin. Well, sorry about that, bur I still question sources or I would believe anything that was on the internet. Since you do not question sources, I have ten million dollars I want to put in your bank account. All I need is your banking information.

Now That I have seen it from the EPA I believe it.

[clytle374]

Sorry that sounded harsh, It was my mood not directed at you.

I sent hours trying to convince people on the net this was for real, or someone to prove me wrong(I would prefer that).

Posting this story on reddit has been buried several times before, looks like picking a holiday was the secret, it went front page. Not that there is some conspiracy. And the federal truck that came too my house earlier and turned around was surly a coincident( I mean of the 2 cars that come by a day thats surely normal).   Not that I have done anything illegal, if that even matters now.  Plus I hear there is great health care in prison w/dental, but probably not  down at that Cuban resort the CIA is running. 

[clytle374]

The truck part seems a bit paranoid, but a bit odd too.

[rbodell]

Sorry that sounded harsh, It was my mood not directed at you.

No problem.

It is like those emails you get saying forward to everybody you know. In the last 15 years I have had two that were true. The rest were twisted half truths on up to out and out lies. First off I don't forward things to people I do not think will enjoy it and I don't forward something I can not confirm as true. A lot of that stuff is meant to discredit people or cause damage to innocent individuals or companies. I don't want to cause somebody to loose business based on some false information I sent and I don't want somebody to get screwed because I recommended somebody that should not have been recommended.

If I want to find out about a politician, I won't go the democratic or the republican websites because they have their own agenda. Instead I go to the congressional records. Then I can find out exactly what they did in office.

At least now when the subject comes up again, I can feel comfortable with what I pass on..

[danalinscott]

The only way to change rules like this are to publicly make them look bad.

That won't change anything. Though it may make the EPA a bit  less benevolent regarding the use of VO fuel. The EPA only enforces the rules which the legislature makes. 

The only way to change the rules is to get legislators to change them.

[mobile_bob]

Dana:

while it is true the epa will enforce what the congress mandates, it also makes alot of the rules we have to live by
that congress has no say in.
they are given free reign to pretty much do as they please, until someone, someone's (many) , the courts, or congress tells them otherwise.

we know that a single person is not going to get traction with them, unless he is a billionaire, or a congressman.

perhaps "many" people can raise enough consciousness about an overly agressive position and get a congressman to take action

and it is possible that a billionaire can take them to court, but

lets face it,, none of that is likely to happen and even if it did a guy like me would grow old in jail or be fined out of my house
if they so chose to do so.

ya they enforce laws, but they also make all the rules as well

and from what i have read so far coming out of them over the last year or so, it is very much like playing cards with a two year old
when they feel they are losing they just change the rules.

i got no love for the epa, realizing of course that without them the pendelum swings the other way and we have
poluted streams, nuke waste and other issues.

they have a purpose, but in many ways i personally feel they are very over reaching in their efforts.

somehow i bet if i were bill gates there would never be a time that they would dip my tank, check if i were running a cat converter on my sports car
or any of that,,, unless they were damned sure they could prevail in a very costly civil action.

but sadly i am not bill gates, so they are quite comfortable in the knowlege that they can do anything they like with the likes of me! 

(still looking for that little island to establish my own country on)

bob g

[rbodell]

Dana:

while it is true the epa will enforce what the congress mandates, it also makes alot of the rules we have to live by
that congress has no say in.
they are given free reign to pretty much do as they please, until someone, someone's (many) , the courts, or congress tells them otherwise.

we know that a single person is not going to get traction with them, unless he is a billionaire, or a congressman.

perhaps "many" people can raise enough consciousness about an overly agressive position and get a congressman to take action

and it is possible that a billionaire can take them to court, but

lets face it,, none of that is likely to happen and even if it did a guy like me would grow old in jail or be fined out of my house
if they so chose to do so.

ya they enforce laws, but they also make all the rules as well

and from what i have read so far coming out of them over the last year or so, it is very much like playing cards with a two year old
when they feel they are losing they just change the rules.

i got no love for the epa, realizing of course that without them the pendelum swings the other way and we have
poluted streams, nuke waste and other issues.

they have a purpose, but in many ways i personally feel they are very over reaching in their efforts.

somehow i bet if i were bill gates there would never be a time that they would dip my tank, check if i were running a cat converter on my sports car
or any of that,,, unless they were damned sure they could prevail in a very costly civil action.

but sadly i am not bill gates, so they are quite comfortable in the knowlege that they can do anything they like with the likes of me! 

(still looking for that little island to establish my own country on)

bob g

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the EPA “making” the laws is like the local zoning board “making” the zoning laws or the mayor “making” laws or the police commissioner taking a police car and going out and pulling over speeders and making arrests..

I think it might be more like an advisory/enforcement situation if anything. I can not see congress doing the research involved to make a law, they have advisers and researchers for that. Congress could also not make a full time effort in researching environmental issues like the epa could. While the EPA may or may not be doing such a good job, I think they are more qualified than any of us are.

A lot of laws do not make sense to us, people are always charging the president with crimes, but the people who are really in the know like lawyers do not go make the charges official because they actually know the law. In the end the charges only amount to character assassination and nothing gets done but name calling and hard feelings. In the end we feel overlooked and left out.

That doesn't mean government is always rite either. I give prohibition as a perfect example of government going wrong and the law being repealed. It is also a good example of what happens when a small group speaks out and the larger group keeps silent, sort of like the 40% turnout at the last presidential election. WVO users are definitely the minority, but if the rest of the people keep silent we can make ourselves heard by writing letters to our congressmen.

[danalinscott]

In the case of VO fuel the EPA is simply enforcing the Clean Air Act. And in fact they are doing it in a very benevolent manner which provides a LOT of wiggle room for those of us who use and experiement with VO fuel.  They have not to this point "gone after" any individuals using VO fuel unlesss it has been a clearly commercial operation.

The semi-official position is that the EPA wants those who may generate useful research on VO fuel to continue to experiement with it.  Single individuals are of no concern to them at all. Commercial operations using VO fuel had better be part of an actual research program designed to generate actual useful VO fuel info however. The attitude is "if you are making additional profit by using VO fuel some of that better be going into research that benefits all Americans."  I do not find that unreasonable.

If you have specific instances of the EPA creating problems for ANYONE please post them. Otherwise you are just repeating rumors or incorrectly attributing the actions of state revenue agencys or city zoning officials to the EPA.

I don't "love" the EPA either. I find their general attitude toward VO fuel use to be extremely benevolent and resonable however. If you want to pick a fight with a govt agency please choose another one. This one is "on our side" as far as VO fuel use goes. Why screw that up?

[mobile_bob]

Dana:

i have no intentions of screwing up anything, as if i could anyway

i see the concept of the epa as being beneficial, but would never see them as a benevolent agency in any manner.

but i guess we can agree to disagree on this point.

as for research, i am all for it
as a matter of fact i think everyone, beit a single person or a company should try to follow some sort of scientific method
and document what they are doing with alternate fuels of all sorts.

i know i plan to, and further i plan on establishing a research center myself.
and would certainly support others to do the same.

perhaps with some established protocols, scientific methods and decent testing equiment
we as a group could get better info rather than all the anecdotal crap that pervades the forums.

i think individuals can and should do that, and if as you say the epa is cool with that
and stays out of our research facilities (garages and shops) then i will take back half the ugly things i think and say about them.



bob g