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Author Topic: Turpentine additive for VO  (Read 15828 times)

bitsnpieces1

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Turpentine additive for VO
« on: December 17, 2007, 02:45:15 PM »
  I am considering running a Listeroid on SVO with all renewable liquids.  Mention has been made about using Acetone to thin the viscosity of the VO to get better burn of the fuel.  Does anyone have any ideas/opinions about using Turpentine as the thining agent instead of acetone?  The purpose is to run a listeroid (or Lister, Lister-Petter AC1) on totally renewable fuel and lubricants, eliminating the use of DinoPetro completely. 
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

Doug

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2007, 03:29:10 PM »
That's very interesting I have no sugestions about Turpentine but I would like to hear what you plan on doing for lube oil.
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rcavictim

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2007, 04:02:33 PM »
bitsnpieces1,

The addition of a tiny amount of acetone to a large amount of fuel was not for thinning purposes.  There is a molecular level reaction in the combustion chamber which allegedly results in a cleaner burn.  Viscocity thinning agents are another matter entirely.

If you have access to a large amount of pure turpentine I think it would be a crime to burn it as fuel.  Sell it to the paint industry and use some of the money to purchase biodiesel.
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MeanListerGreen

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2007, 12:29:33 AM »
Turpentine will boost cetane levels.  It has been suggested to mix 1/2 oz. per gallon of diesel, veg oil, bio diesel, heavy oil....etc.  It should lessen coking.  Let us know how it turns out for you.
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draganof

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2007, 01:57:17 AM »
That's very interesting I have no sugestions about Turpentine but I would like to hear what you plan on doing for lube oil.

Now I am going to ask a question out of curiosity only. I won't even consider doing this on any of my engines but could you use new VO as lube oil in the sump?l I would think it would be to thin but would it provide any lubrication? I'll buy the oil if someone wants to donate an engine to the cause*.

*cause I ain't doing it to mine! ;D

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
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rcavictim

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2007, 02:38:09 AM »
That's very interesting I have no sugestions about Turpentine but I would like to hear what you plan on doing for lube oil.

Now I am going to ask a question out of curiosity only. I won't even consider doing this on any of my engines but could you use new VO as lube oil in the sump?l I would think it would be to thin but would it provide any lubrication? I'll buy the oil if someone wants to donate an engine to the cause*.

*cause I ain't doing it to mine! ;D

John

Modern lube oil has fancy molecular formulations that are designed to improve on certain characteristics that allow modern engine designs to survive with higher operating temperatures, increased bearing loading, high speed operation, anti foaming, Ph stabilization, impurity suspension, anti-oxydation, etc.  The old Lister CS is an old design that does not put high stress loads on the bearings, nor does it run the oil at extreme temperatures.  In fact detergent type oil is not even needed or desired in the original deep sump Lister design. Gravity became the particulate filter in these engines.

It may be that clean vegetable oil may work just fine in the Lister and similar low stress, low speed designs.  In fact, to assure a clean supply of oil in the sump one can arrange that fresh oil from the supply tank goes to the sump after filtering, then gets pulled out of the sump, filtered again and into the injector pump.  Your sump oil would always be no older than a few hours from new.  Interesting idea.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
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Doug

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2007, 03:06:38 AM »
Castor oil was the Lube oil in many early engines and it worked realy well!.

Whale oil was also a premium lube oil and was still used an additive to petro oils as late as the 60s ( eg I could be wrong but I read some where original GM dexron oil had whale oil in it )
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draganof

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2007, 03:11:42 AM »
The concept of a totally veggie based engine would have huge financial rewards if one could pull it off. Just think, you could go to the grocery store and get 2 gallons of Wesson oil. One for fried chicken and the other for an oil change in the lister! Then later after the chicken is fried up you dump that oil in the fuel tank. Who needs carbon credits when you can do it with fried chicken!

Sorry about going off track.

 I do have a question about the turpentine though. When you burn turpentine in a dish does it leave behind any type of varnish looking substance? Our oil sample lab at work does a test on lube oil to check for fuel contamination and another test is for fuel flammabilty. Some of the fuel samples leave behind some sludgy deposits when the fuel is contaminated. 

John
Changfa 195 and ST10
8kw Yanmar/Kohler

draganof

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 03:22:43 AM »
Interesting about the whale oil as a lube. In the late sixties in Nam we had some locals die after they used new synthetic gas turbine oil to cook with. Seems they had procured some older fished based oil in the past and figured the new type might be good for cooking also. Seems they were wrong. I know the new synthetic turbine oil still have a fishy smell to them. I wonder why?

John
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dieseldave

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2007, 03:35:24 AM »
   Castor oil did work really well. Still does! Except for one thing. After it was run in an engine and allowed to cool down,especially in early motor racing,it would congeal in the crankcase.

   Some one came up with an idea to mix petROLeum oil & CASTor oil 50/50. They soon incorporated as a company.

   Can you guess the name of that company?     They are worldwide,in the business of lubrication!

mobile_bob

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 04:31:52 AM »
wasn't it kyradawg that had a diesel pickup running all veggie oil?
veggie for fuel, veggie in the crankcase, in the autotransmission and the rear differential?

if i recall he had been running it for a long time without issues
he used the crankcase to heat it and then used the heated oil as fuel
so it had a constant oil change.

i guess a search is in order
:)

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captfred

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 09:40:50 AM »
While showing a friend from the PI my wvo roid setup he told me what he and many others back home use for 4-stroke oil  - cooking oil. 
so far it's workin' pretty well in my bush-cutter.

Have  another friend going to Leyte in the PI over the holidays and will try to pick up a Bosch Protos plant oil stove for cooking. Hope to be cookin' with wvo in a few weeks.

Fred

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 03:18:50 PM »
  The idea is to get into running one with 100% renewable sources.  No petro or coal, including biodiesel unless it can be made with no use of fossil fuels.  Part of this is just to see if it can be done. 

Doug:  I plan to use canola oil as the lube oil.  Castor oil made a great lube, but, it always left behind a residue that had to be cleaned out.  The reason is that it, like Linseed oil it oxidises easily, due to the presence of linoleic compounds, which is why they are so great for oil base paint.  However, Canola, peanut, and olive oils have oleic compounds which don't oxidise easily.  That's why the guy was able to run it as lube oil in his truck, also why they are so good for frying.  They can take the heat so to speak.  Yes the earliest automatic transmissions were a whale oil base, not petroleum, because it could handle the high temps as well as the high pressure.  They had a real time coming up with a suitable replacement from petroleum base oils.

rcavictim:  Whatever with the thinning/molecular reaction.  The thing is that it enabled a thick vegetable oil to combust better in an engine.  Same thing as the guy using ULG to aid in combustion.  The price of the turpentine is still to be determined.  By the way I live in Florida which is where much of it comes from.  Since the Listeroid doesn't carry the high bearing loads that high speed engines do the pressure problem should be better.  Running the used lube oil into the IP as fuel would be the object.  Length of time as lube to be determined.  Every shutdown OR day drain off a 1/2 cup or so into a small jelly jar (or other clear container) and allow to cool off then check for viscosity or gelling.  At the point that it just begins to start getting thicker or at the regular recommended change interval, drain the oil, clean, filter and put it in its' own tank.  Warmup on VO, switch to used VO tank until it's burned up, then back to VO tank.  One strong possibility would be to have a small pump injecting a small amount of new SVO into the crankcase, then another small pump pulling the same amount out of the crankcase and into the injection system on a continuous basis (after filtering,etc.).  Wouldn't pay to put it onto the new SVO tank due to possible contamination issues. 

  Of course I will need to work out how to keep the engine running well on SVO.  I plan on changing the CO valve to a heating type unit which would run continuously.  Keep the higher compression and run a glowplug in the intake to heat the incoming air for engine warmup.  Run the exhaust into a biomass trench to take out the particulates and Nitrogen oxides.  Of course this might mean that using the turpentine wouldn't be needed at all.  Maybe a method of running could be developed that could be modified to use locally available fuels.  Oh, might even try using the SVO as the coolant also, better heat retention in the combustion chamber for better combustion. 

captfred:  I'd be interested in finding out more about that plant oil cooker you were talking about. 
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

biobill

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2007, 12:35:28 AM »
b n p
  Cool project! Anyone know the VI# for canola oil? Close to a 30wt? You won't have the crankcase heat to worry about like in a modern design - I bet it'll work fine.
  Running on VO is being done by several forum members in far colder climates than Florida. Doubt you'd need the heated CO valve and intake. Heating the lines and injector seems to do the trick. You could make biodiesel (for starting and warm up) using ethanol instead of methanol (which may have petroleum origins) - a couple blender batches would last you a while.  Looking forward to progress reports.

Protos Stove http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/Archives/7e7b5cf0a068e010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____ I want one. Wonder if they can be used indoors?
     Bill
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Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

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Re: Turpentine additive for VO
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2007, 01:02:08 AM »
bitsnpieces1,
  I plan on changing the CO valve to a heating type unit

Be carefull of loading up your engine on high compression, the original reason for the ability to switch to low compression, as has been posted here on occasion, is to avoid unneccesary loads on the engine while on high compression.  Watch out for your con-rod bearings and piston.
Stan