Ac/DC

[rbodell]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the power company will pay you the same price as they sell it for.

Consider yourself corrected ..... it depends which power company you are dealing with. BC Hydro for example charges or refunds you on the NET energy you use over a year. So, if you stick 1000 kw into the grid in the winter while using the waste heat to heat your house and if you pull 1100 kw out during he summer, you get charged as if you used 100 kw.
I do not know the actual rate that they are paying if you were to only use up 900 kw out of the banked 1000 kw. You are of course still responsible for meter rental, transmission charges and whatever else they can think up.

Jens

But what is the price they charge you as opposed to the price they refund you? You said it depends on the power company, so does anybody else agree or disagree with this?

[carlb23]

I don't know much about gride ty inverters but if it were me I'd be looking hard at indution generation because its simpler to do.

As good as elelctronics are I just don't put much faith in long term reliability.

I agree that an induction motor would be the easiest way to go, but the utility would never approve an induction motor setup without making you jump through hoops.  With the Grid tied inverters already installed and approved it is easier for me to go this was.

Carl

[carlb23]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the power company will pay you the same price as they sell it for.

Consider yourself corrected ..... it depends which power company you are dealing with. BC Hydro for example charges or refunds you on the NET energy you use over a year. So, if you stick 1000 kw into the grid in the winter while using the waste heat to heat your house and if you pull 1100 kw out during he summer, you get charged as if you used 100 kw.
I do not know the actual rate that they are paying if you were to only use up 900 kw out of the banked 1000 kw. You are of course still responsible for meter rental, transmission charges and whatever else they can think up.

Jens

But what is the price they charge you as opposed to the price they refund you? You said it depends on the power company, so does anybody else agree or disagree with this?

The key is not to sell them the power the key is to have them hold/store it for you until you need it thats why its called net meetering you only pay the difference between what you use and what you produce. With net metering in New Jersey you only true up once a year if you carry an credit at all.  If you dont have a credit you will get a bill monthly if you do have a credit you will get a bill showing a credit.

[rbodell]

But what is the price they charge you as opposed to the price they refund you? You said it depends on the power company, so does anybody else agree or disagree with this?

The key is not to sell them the power the key is to have them hold/store it for you until you need it thats why its called net meetering you only pay the difference between what you use and what you produce. With net metering in New Jersey you only true up once a year if you carry an credit at all.  If you dont have a credit you will get a bill monthly if you do have a credit you will get a bill showing a credit.

OK that makes snse. Is it like that everyplace or do some places actualy buy it?

[carlb23]

Bob,

They will buy it back if you have a surplus at the end of the year.  Our goal is to only have a very small amount of surplus KwH left at the end of the cycle.  In our case the yearly cycle starts April 1.

carl

[Doug]

I don't know much about gride ty inverters but if it were me I'd be looking hard at indution generation because its simpler to do.

As good as elelctronics are I just don't put much faith in long term reliability.

I agree that an induction motor would be the easiest way to go, but the utility would never approve an induction motor setup without making you jump through hoops.  With the Grid tied inverters already installed and approved it is easier for me to go this was.

Carl

What kind of reliability do these grid ty inverters have?
In my line of work I can expect 1 in 20 Cutler hammer regen drives ( not an inverter in the same sence but same technology ) to fail within 6 to 12 months in 24-7 opperation that requires replacement.
I can expect just about all the power electronics to develop a problem once a year. Usualy a lighting trip, overtemp trip or other resetable fault.
It doesn't realy seem to matter who builds the electronics although some are better than others ( prefer Askawa drives over ABB or CH AB ect ect ). This is in an industrial setting, so how often do these grid ty inverters trip or fault and what is the most comon problems

[carlb23]

Doug,

Two of the inverters are Sharp 3500 Watt units and have been online everyday since Dec 1, 2004 obviously they shut down at night but in three years they have be in operation they have never had a problem.  The newest one, a Froinus 3,000 watt inverter has only been online for a few months now but it is working fine.  All of these inverters came with a 5 year guarantee and the froinus can be extended to 10 years.

Carl

[rbodell]

Bob,

They will buy it back if you have a surplus at the end of the year.  Our goal is to only have a very small amount of surplus KwH left at the end of the cycle.  In our case the yearly cycle starts April 1.

carl

OK. I don't know maybe I am missing something here. I can't see spending 2 or 3 thousand dollars to break even or make a couple of dollars at the end of the year. I'd rather spend a couple grand on a spare engine and not have anything to do with the power company. That is just me though.

[mobile_bob]

i agree with Bob!

why sell to a power company?

unless they give you at least what they charge you for it, and that varies from state to state
some places won't but it, some will at a deferred cost basis, and some at full rate

even at full rate i don't want their service!

but i do understand there are others that feel differently,

i figure if i am selling to them, then that is just another reason for them to be poking around, and asking questions, requireing permits and inspections
and also having them popping in whenever they feel like it for whatever reason they feel is necessary at any given moment.

in the county in kansas where i have my property, all utilities, inspectors etc are bound by law to report anything amiss that they might see while on your property
even if it is outside their area of concern... so a electric utility meter reader is mandated to report you to a building inspector if he see's a new outbuilding
or the mailman if he see's new plumbing being installed,, well drillers etc

so i will get a po box at the post office and provide and consume my own power thank you very much!

even if it cost's me a bit more per kwatt/hr to do so
so far this season the power company has not been all that reliable in my estimation and likely is not going to improve over time

a couple or three of my own gensets, some solar, wind gen's and a battery bank will be far more reliable in my opinion
and i can hook it all up the way i see fit,, without having to educate some inspector that has no clue about AE, DC generation, batteries and all that.

but again, i realize my reality may not be that of others

bob g

[Doug]

"without having to educate some inspector that has no clue about AE, DC generation, batteries and all that."

Dangerous assumption Bob. I can find fault with some inspectors but generaly speaking they are up on what they do for a livng

"but again, i realize my reality may not be that of others "

Or you might actualy be right and your dealing with people who are not fully versed in home power generation or worse still sounds like you may have a jackass problem to deal with. You can't tell who your dealing with unless you speak to one.
My mail man delivers mail, he usualy runs, and he's got a hair cut like forest gump....

[mobile_bob]

Doug:

i don't mean to slight any of the fine folks that are qualified inspectors, they do good work for the most part

what i am talking about is in small sparcely populated counties, where the electrical inspector only has about a half dozen homes to inspect
in any given year, who is also the plumbing inspector, building inspector, dog catcher, part time fire chief and was appointed to the position by his
father inlaw because he isn't smart enough to get a job on his own...

he might be the nicest guy in the world, and he actually may know something about house wiring, but you know the type
he is going to look at an alterntive energy installation and not have a clue.

so he sinks his heals in and refuses to grant the permit, or sign of on one his uncle sold you at the courthouse.
until you either put in what he understands or spend months trying to educate him and provide all the supporting doc's etc.

i have found in the larger area's, the inspectors are much easier to work with, have seen or at least heard of most of the stuff we are doing
that i can work with...

i am just to damned old and cranky to put up with somebodies good for nothing son inlaw, that now thinks he is barney fife
running around with a bullet in his pocket.

so i purposely picked an area of the country that i am familiar with, that doesn't have the man power to give me much trouble.
and the way i figure it what they don't know sure can't hurt me
the less they know about me, the better off i am.

btw, i can wire, plumb and build to code and have pulled permits and passed inspections on all three,  on the first pass
so i ain't to worried about not doing something right or unsafe.

bob g

[SCOTT]

i agree with Bob!

why sell to a power company?

unless they give you at least what they charge you for it, and that varies from state to state
some places won't but it, some will at a deferred cost basis, and some at full rate

Well most states do buy it back from you at the same price they charge for it. 

Below is how my utility in Ct works there will be exceptions, but in general this is how they work.

In many (not all) the electric bill has 2 components, the commodity charge and the delivery charge.  The commodity is just that the, the price of the electricity, lets say  .09/kwh.  This is a pure pass through charge. The other component is the delivery charge, and lets say that is .10/kwh making the total cost .19/kwh.

So when you produce your own electricity you avoid paying both the .09/kwh commodity charge and the .10/kwh delivery charge.  The value of your production is .19/kwh UP TO YOUR DOMESTIC USAGE.

Once you exceed your domestic usage and begin accumulating kwh credits your production is worth less to you.  You will be paid .09/kwh, the same price that the utility pays any other producer on their network; this is known as the avoided cost.  This avoided cost is the electricity component that the utility has avoided buying from another supplier.  They will not pay you the .10/kwh delivery charge, because you do not own the delivery network, they do.  You are not responsible for maintaining this network, they are.

This is a pretty good good  system, where else can you find an entity that is compelled by law to buy what you make?

Scott

[rbodell]

i agree with Bob!

why sell to a power company?

unless they give you at least what they charge you for it, and that varies from state to state
some places won't but it, some will at a deferred cost basis, and some at full rate

Well most states do buy it back from you at the same price they charge for it. 

Below is how my utility in Ct works there will be exceptions, but in general this is how they work.

In many (not all) the electric bill has 2 components, the commodity charge and the delivery charge.  The commodity is just that the, the price of the electricity, lets say  .09/kwh.  This is a pure pass through charge. The other component is the delivery charge, and lets say that is .10/kwh making the total cost .19/kwh.

So when you produce your own electricity you avoid paying both the .09/kwh commodity charge and the .10/kwh delivery charge.  The value of your production is .19/kwh UP TO YOUR DOMESTIC USAGE.

Once you exceed your domestic usage and begin accumulating kwh credits your production is worth less to you.  You will be paid .09/kwh, the same price that the utility pays any other producer on their network; this is known as the avoided cost.  This avoided cost is the electricity component that the utility has avoided buying from another supplier.  They will not pay you the .10/kwh delivery charge, because you do not own the delivery network, they do.  You are not responsible for maintaining this network, they are.

This is a pretty good good  system, where else can you find an entity that is compelled by law to buy what you make?

Scott

Just as I figured, you're power is worth more to use it yourself and then shut down the engine when not using it. At the price of fuel you can't compete with the power company unless you have free fuel like straight WVO. Even with free fuel, you still have to pay a lot fort he grid tie equipment, wear and tear on the equipment and the hassles.

I can see where it would be profitable if you had a really big wind power system where it runs all the time and produces a lot more than you can use with minimal maintenance. Maybe even a solar system if it was big enough. Maybe if you had a farm and a methane plant or an old well and a generator that runs on drip gas. I doubt you can make any real usable income from the power company unless you had a really big investment.

I have some people that pay me a buck a gallon to drop off their waste motor oil, but at a gallon or a gallon and a half a day, I might pay for the engine in 8 or 10 years and I have yet to determine the affects of the WMO in the engine.

[ronmar]

Well most states do buy it back from you at the same price they charge for it. 

And I think those that do not, are receiving more and more federal pressure to do so these days.

Ron

[Doug]

"what i am talking about is in small sparcely populated counties, where the electrical inspector only has about a half dozen homes to inspect
in any given year, who is also the plumbing inspector, building inspector, dog catcher, part time fire chief and was appointed to the position by his
father inlaw because he isn't smart enough to get a job on his own..."

In that case Bob you have my sympathy along with everyone else in your county.
You don't need a guy like that, no one does. Odds are he passes a much bad as he flags off thats good and someday he'll will be held acountable.

We had a water inspector in a town called Walkerton like that. Not sure if he's still in jail now or not, because a lot of people got sick and a few died because he was a moron and got his job threw his family ( brother I think was mayer or something ).