Author Topic: sell power back to utility  (Read 33506 times)

Doug

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 03:51:26 AM »
You need to be suspect of any numbers you base on what WE post....

Its not because we are fudging, its just everyone is tinkering and when you tinker you might get better than averge or worse and I'm not sure those numbers will all come out in the was.

It would be better to stick with SOM numbers as posted by owners and from Peter's tables
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Holter

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 08:10:22 AM »
instead of buying an inverter you could connect the genset directly to the grid and use some approved control device to disconnect. depending on this device you can use a synchronous or asynchronous generator. The first one could be used to supply the house in case of power outages but needs a more complex control. The asynchronous generator needs only a protectiono circiut with a relais, that disconnects in a case of grid faliure and (depending on the utility) some capacitors to adjust the cos phi.
I do not know, what normatives this protection device has to fulfill and what brands can be recommended (woodward?) but you could ask your utility or owners of small hydro plants about it.

Christian

SCOTT

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 01:50:51 PM »
instead of buying an inverter you could connect the genset directly to the grid and use some approved control device to disconnect.

Unfortunately this is not a viable solution.  For the small size generator a home owner would use, such a device is not available.

I have an inverter and interface box scheduled for delivered today with modifications that should allow easy use with the output from the standard ST head.  After testing I will post results and details.

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

Holter

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 04:42:24 PM »
For the small size generator a home owner would use, such a device is not available.


Mmh, what about the Deif BGC Series? www.deif.com
Or woodward easygen 1000? www.woodward.com

Too expensive or not approved? I at least read aomething about UL.

Christian

ronmar

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 08:36:53 PM »
instead of buying an inverter you could connect the genset directly to the grid and use some approved control device to disconnect.

Unfortunately this is not a viable solution.  For the small size generator a home owner would use, such a device is not available.

I have an inverter and interface box scheduled for delivered today with modifications that should allow easy use with the output from the standard ST head.  After testing I will post results and details.

Scott

Scott
   People have been net metering for decades before inverters were commonly available.  I remember reading about this in Mother Earth News back whenI was in highschool.  Typically it was people with available hydro(constant sustainable source of torque) that went to the trouble, but it is do-able.  An induction motor when spun beyond it's rated RPM will(usng AC from the grid) excite and deliver current.  With the right ammount of capacitance, it will self excite without input AC and can be used as a generator... 

Ron
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SCOTT

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2007, 08:52:52 PM »
Ronmar
The mechanics of net metering are simple, as you said it can be done with an induction motor run above name plate speed. 
That has never been the issue in my mind.  In order to net meter, the utility has to approve the install.  Some may approve the use of an induction motor and maybe a magentic starter.  Most utilities will not.  Thus the discussion of using UL approved grid interface devices. 

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

jzeeff

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2007, 10:08:40 PM »

Yep.  With anti-islanding being the major concern.

Here in MI, the utilities are trying to claim that even UL1741 approval isn't enough to be assured that you can connect.

schoust

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2008, 03:24:38 PM »
  Hey Scott any progress yet? I'm waiting for you to change my mind on the sale of my engine and generator.......... ;)

SCOTT

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2008, 03:45:13 PM »
I have the inverter, but the comm card arrived broken.  I am waiting for a replacement card so I can reprogram the inverter.

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
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6/1

buickanddeere

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 06:47:19 PM »
 The previously posted asynchronous generator is an ordinary garden issue induction motor connected to another source of reactive current and spun above syncronous rpms.

rmchambers

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2008, 01:30:10 AM »
What happens when the utility doubles or triples the cost for their KWH's ?  Realistically what cost per KWH would 'lectric have to be before rolling your own (lets say with WVO that you get for nothing) becomes viable?

Captfred has higher priced electricity that pretty much all of us, how close do you come to being a cost-effective power company Fred?

RC

rcavictim

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2008, 02:00:28 AM »
What happens when the utility doubles or triples the cost for their KWH's ? 
RC

You can bet they will raise their delivery fees and other extra charges in proportion so that those giving power back to the utility as part of any NET METERING programme will never ever see a dime of cashflow in their direction.  Forever the hated, ill mannered, all self -serving, psychopathic corporation.
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SCOTT

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 03:41:25 AM »
As I have said in the past, there are two components that make up MOST electric bills.

1.   The commodity charge (self explanatory)
2.   The delivery charge
Now if anyone out there is willing to work for free let me know, because I could use the free help. 

Ok no takers? 


The electric companies pay a lot for lineman to fix problems and keep the grid in good shape (overly simplistic, they do a lot more), so I argue that the delivery portion of the total electric bill is a bargain.  After all, who else is going to keep the trees trimmed and fix broken lines?

The commodity charge is usually a pass through charge for the utility, since regulations in some states preclude the delivery company from also being a generator. 

If you have the ability (and know how) to net meter, by all means do so.  The utility/and or state, often subsidizes your pet project (solar, wind, biomass, etc,) and they are compelled BY LAW to be a buyer of your output at the same rate they buy from “real producers” (multi mw)

Make no mistake, this (net metering) is a pretty damn good deal..

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

Stan

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2008, 07:33:47 PM »
Scott, sorry for the late reply, I don't often read this part of the forum. 

Your reply containing the words, (Now if anyone out there is willing to work for free let me know, because I could use the free help.

Ok no takers? ) is a bit sarcastic and could be interpreted as spoiling for a scrap.

Let me say this, Yes, I have worked for free for 28 years!  As a teacher I got to work at 8am, worked through till 4:30pm with about a 15 min break at lunch.  There's lots of planning and curriculum development that has to be done on a daily basis)  Just enough time to wolf down some food before going on duty in the school yard.  I took home 1.5 to 2 hrs marking every day, and between 2 and 4 hours worth of marking on weekends.  Even on nights when I had personal things to do like camera club meetings, I would get home and sit down after 9pm to do the marking because my students deserved to get their results in a timely manner.  I often had in excess of 200 students (7 blocks of 30 students) that churned out an amazing amount of work, much of which had to be marked by myself) . That works out to around 12 hrs a week, 48 hrs per month.  That's 60 days per year of "free" work (3 months for most people)  because I wanted to do my job better and my employer wasn't about to pay me for it.  That doesn't account for the 1.5X overtime factor in most peoples contracts.

Just in case it comes up, no I didn't get 2 months "off" in the summer, I had to budget 10 to 15% of my salary and save it every month to have money to live on during July and august because there is no pay for most teachers then.  Those that do have their salary decreased by that amount and repaid to them during those months.

No I didn't make an huge salary, Police, Nurses, garbage collectors and even pulp mill laborers made more than me during my entire career.  I also had the problem of losing 5 years salary, and tuition and living expenses to go to university for 5 years, plus not getting up to my full salary for 10 years after I began teaching.

Also, just in case you might think teaching is a "cushy" job, I could relate situations involving parent teacher interviews, recalcitrant students, unbelievable demands by administrators and on and on.

So, Yes, there are people who do "work for free" just for the job satisfaction of doing a better job, even when their employers wont pay them overtime to do it.  Do you?
Stan

mobile_bob

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Re: sell power back to utility
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 05:21:39 AM »
maybe i am a cantancorous, crotchety of fart
but for the life of me i cannot understand why anyone would want to net meter or sell power to the grid?

perhaps if you have a hydro or solar or some other truely free fuel power installation, but with an engine driven genset? please!

i cannot think of any reason to do so, and even if i try as i might to justify it, i find with precious little thought alternatives that make
more sense.

i have heard most of the reasoning,, such as using the grid as your battery bank, but even that seems like a false economy to me.

aside from the economics, selling to the grid is tantamount to registering a gun in my books,, hmmmm now the power company knows you
have a listeroid?

also not all power companies in all states have to buy back your power for the same price you would pay for it,, in which case it makes even less sense.

doesn't seem like a magic bullet to me, rather more con's than pro's for most folks
i think i could make a better case for collecting pop cans to be sold for recycling :)
probably more net profit at the end of the month.

maybe i am just too dense,, but pray tell, someone explain to me how selling to the grid makes sense.

waiting

bob g
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