sell power back to utility

[mobile_bob]

Jens:

good points for the most part, but some just don't hold water so to speak

there is no such thing as free fuel and one also has to figure in the first cost, depreciation and maintenance of the generating equipment
large diesel generators figure 1.5 cents per kwatt/hr for maintenance alone,, and that is a 10 year old number, so maybe in todays dollars it
is 2.5 cents per kwatt/hr,, just for maintenance (which includes minor and major overhauls along with normal oil and filter changes)

add to that depreciation of the generating equipment, perhaps another cent or so

so now we are at 3.5 cents per kwatt/hr on a quality large scale diesel generator,, i highly doubt a lister/oid is going to compete well with this number
but likely be a bit more in reality,, maybe 4 cents total per kwatt hour.

now we have maintenance and depreciation taken care of, so lets look at our free fuel

if one were to drive a 20 mile lap in an old pickup with a barrel in the back for collection
and the old pickup gets 10 mile per gallon we burn 2 gallons or around 6 bucks in fuel,,, but lets just say $5.50 in gas, wear and tear on the truck, depreciation
insurance, etc all included,,, hmmm that free fuel now has a cost of 10 cents a gallon

to process and filter the so called free fuel we will incur maybe another cent of two per gallon ,, lets say 2 cents
so our fuel now costs us 12 cents a gallon
we need to burn about 1/3 gallon per kwatt/hr at least for the first kwatt, somewhat less for the additional kwatts generated
so in free fuel we are burning 4 cents per kwatt/hr

so one is about at or around 8 cents per kwatt/hr in a perfect world?  and what of ones time?
if you pay yourself a buck an hour, one might find himself near par with purchased electricity.

i just don't think one can make a case from and economic standpoint for selling even one kwatt/hr to the grid, until rates get over maybe
20 cents per kwatt/hr,, and maybe in reality closer to 30 cents per kwatt/hr.

now from a hobby or educational viewpoint, where one is well aware that such endevours rarely if ever make money but rather consume it, i suppose
it might be worth it.

in any event i think one would be sadly mistaken if he thought he was going to make money doing it.

maybe a big mac and a small coke for a months worth of part time work?  thats if one is lucky?

it seems to me that most folks down deep want to be self sufficient and dream of cutting the cord, selling the hard earned power to the grid
seems a bit like being 5 years old and still on the teat,, or worse yet

"hey momma wanna buy some milk back?"

it just don't feel right

bob g

[SCOTT]

Bob
Interesting analysis, taking into account depreciation and all.  When you do that you are getting into the area of tax accounting.  This is fine, but if you are going to bring in the IRS, you might as well keep track of ALL your  costs. i.e. milage at 48.5 cents (per 2007 IRS milage allowance).  You can also deduct any plant and equipment from your taxes, i.e. your Lister engine, your gen head, the welder you bought to build the frame, the materials for the frame, and the list goes on.  If you do everything by the book and you have a net positive balance with the utility at the end of the yeaer you should claim this as income.  It will be taxed as regular income at your rate  I am no tax expert, but it may be a good idea to talk with an accountant about this, if there is a tax advantaged way to use net metering, then by all means do it.

Bob your analysis of the rates is not exactly complete.  I will use my rates, as I know what they are, it is better to use a real life example.
My all inclusive rate less fees is 19.2 cents per kwh.  If I produce up to my domestic usage over the year my production is worth 19.2 cents per kwh.  If I produce over my domestic usage I am paid the “avoided rate” which is basically the commodity charge.  This is running about 7c per kwh.  Now I do have the ability to sell “recs” (green energy credits) at a rate of at leaset 3c per kwh.  This brings my production value up to 22.2 cents per kwh up to my domestic usage. The value is 10.2c for anything over my domestic usage.

We all know that there is heat to be used, and if I capture heat from the exhaust and or collant loop I can reduce my heating requirements for my house during the winter.  So if I run the engine mostly in the winter, I can accrue kwh credits when I also need the heat.  If I produce enough kwh during the winter, I may not need to run the gen during the summer.

If you use ALL the tools available this can make sense, but as someone else said, no one is going to make a living doing this.

Scott

[rbodell]

Jens:

good points for the most part, but some just don't hold water so to speak

there is no such thing as free fuel and one also has to figure in the first cost, depreciation and maintenance of the generating equipment
large diesel generators figure 1.5 cents per kwatt/hr for maintenance alone,, and that is a 10 year old number, so maybe in todays dollars it
is 2.5 cents per kwatt/hr,, just for maintenance (which includes minor and major overhauls along with normal oil and filter changes)

add to that depreciation of the generating equipment, perhaps another cent or so

so now we are at 3.5 cents per kwatt/hr on a quality large scale diesel generator,, i highly doubt a lister/oid is going to compete well with this number
but likely be a bit more in reality,, maybe 4 cents total per kwatt hour.

now we have maintenance and depreciation taken care of, so lets look at our free fuel

if one were to drive a 20 mile lap in an old pickup with a barrel in the back for collection
and the old pickup gets 10 mile per gallon we burn 2 gallons or around 6 bucks in fuel,,, but lets just say $5.50 in gas, wear and tear on the truck, depreciation
insurance, etc all included,,, hmmm that free fuel now has a cost of 10 cents a gallon

to process and filter the so called free fuel we will incur maybe another cent of two per gallon ,, lets say 2 cents
so our fuel now costs us 12 cents a gallon
we need to burn about 1/3 gallon per kwatt/hr at least for the first kwatt, somewhat less for the additional kwatts generated
so in free fuel we are burning 4 cents per kwatt/hr

so one is about at or around 8 cents per kwatt/hr in a perfect world?  and what of ones time?
if you pay yourself a buck an hour, one might find himself near par with purchased electricity.

i just don't think one can make a case from and economic standpoint for selling even one kwatt/hr to the grid, until rates get over maybe
20 cents per kwatt/hr,, and maybe in reality closer to 30 cents per kwatt/hr.

now from a hobby or educational viewpoint, where one is well aware that such endevours rarely if ever make money but rather consume it, i suppose
it might be worth it.

in any event i think one would be sadly mistaken if he thought he was going to make money doing it.

maybe a big mac and a small coke for a months worth of part time work?  thats if one is lucky?

it seems to me that most folks down deep want to be self sufficient and dream of cutting the cord, selling the hard earned power to the grid
seems a bit like being 5 years old and still on the teat,, or worse yet

"hey momma wanna buy some milk back?"

it just don't feel right

bob g

I don't understand how you figure maintenance in for fuel cost. I am sure that when somebody says free fuel they are referring to like looking at the gas pump and seeing all zeros in the price per gallon window. I don't figure in the cost of driving to the gas station and maintaining my truck when I look at the cost of gas on the pump. You are going to have those costs no matter what fuel you use. I am sure that when somebody says free fuel they are referring to like looking at the gas pump and seeing all zeros in the price per gallon window on the fuel pump. Of course you could choose not to run your engine at all.

The cost of processing the fuel shouldn't count if you are already running the generator and have figured the cost of maintenance in on the cost of “free” fuel.

All that aside, I have a few people who pay me a dollar a gallon to drop it off here and thank me for taking it LOL.

[rmchambers]

Lets assume you've already got the listeroid/whatever to generate your own power if/when the grid goes down.  It's a dual use at that point - backup for grid outages and since it's already in place why not exercise it to your advantage.

I pay (based on my last electric bill  875kwh divided by cost $188.26) 21.25 cents per kwh.  That's my real cost and a simple division like that takes care of distribution/taxes and all that other crap.

I think the best thing is that with a listeroid the user can provide his own power, that's a cost offset against an electric bill.  If there's other reasons to run the listeroid AND the user is making more power than he consumes then you might as well dump the excess back to the grid.

Are you making power more cheaply than the electric company?  of course not.  Will the cost per kwh go up and up and up.  I think it's fair to say that's a given.

RC

[Quinnf]

RC,

At that price that's the best justification for generating your own electricity.  The avoided cost of buying same from the utility.  Beyond that, trying to sell back to the utility isn't worth the interconnect costs for the wholesale rate that you'll earn.  Whereas the avoided cost figures in distribution tariffs, taxes, fees, and the markup the utility adds to the power they buy or generate over their wholesale cost.  So either run your meter back to zero each month, or simply disconnect and run the genny.

Jens,

Re the moth balls, I saw a package of those at the store once.  They must have come from one helluva BIG moth!

Quinn

[rbodell]

Re the moth balls, I saw a package of those at the store once.  They must have come from one helluva BIG moth!
Quinn

I live in texas, those moth balls you by in the store are from small moths. The big ones are too big to put in the package.

[rmchambers]

The snag with running the meter backwards here is that you never run your bill down to zero.  You get hit with a basic service charge of $12.12 which isn't based on how much you use it's probably just for the privilege of being on the grid.

Either way if you have a decent generator set and can generate your own for something close to or less than the grid then better that you do your own thing and keep the money out of the hands of the power company.  Is $12/month cheap insurance to get power if your setup goes down?  probably.

It's interesting though!

RC

[SCOTT]

Well guys I finally did it.  Today my utility (Connecticut light and power) came to my house to do a witness test.  What that means is they inspected my net metering setup,  And it passed the inspection.  I am now able to sell power back to the grid legally and 100% by the book. 

It has been a long journey, having to get approval from:
 my city, which required departmental approval from
the health department (noise regulations)
environmental board
building department (fire codes and electrical codes.
And the utility, which had to approve of the design of the system as well as the fuel used.

Getting these approvals was not exactly easy.  You have to remember that the city and utility has likely never heard of using a diesel engine designed in the 1920’s running on veg oil to produce electricity, much less trying to sell that back to the grid.  With that said it took a lot of time for me to educate the various departments and agencies on why this would 1.)work and 2.) comply with the various regulations and rules.

In the end the plan has changed a bit, but the spirit of the original idea still holds true.  Convert free for the taking veg oil into useable electricity and heat. 

In the weeks and months ahead I will try to do a better job of detailing the process.  I should be able to include actual output data vs fuel consumption, etc.

The take away for now is that it can be done by the book and in compliance with all the regulations.

Scott

[mobile_bob]

congrat's Scott !!

even if for the life of me i don't understand the appeal of selling power, but then
again i don't have to understand do i?

in any event your ongoing experience and experiments of fuel consumption vs kwatt output
lifespan on veggie and bio fuels etc. will have interesting and important results.

bob g

[mike90045]

Well guys I finally did it.  Today my utility (Connecticut light and power) came to my house to do a witness test.  What that means is they inspected my net metering setup,  And it passed the inspection.  I am now able to sell power back to the grid legally and 100% by the book. 

Congratulations !!  Can you enjoy a cold one, while selling back ? 

[biobill]

Excellent SCOTT!!
  I'm chuckling imagining what the inspectors faces looked like. Have you got their phone #?  I'd like to call them and inquire about hooking up with a mule powered tread mill
   Will you be running 24/7? Anxiously awaiting reports.   Bill

[rl71459]

I checked into it today.... I can have net metering here!!;D  (Michigan Lower Pen)

They say they will send me forms......Cool!

[jzeeff]

Keep us posted if you succeed with net metering in MI.

[rl71459]

Hi everyone

I never did receive the forms that they said they would send... I will contact them again.

Just to update... I have purchased (E-Bay, 30 plate) a heat exchanger to use for home heating... Still need one for my furnace.
progress is very slow!
Rob

[solarphil]

Hi all

Down under in Geelong Victoria, the local power retailer, Origin, are offering 20c/kwhr on Nett metered power sent back into the grid network.  I'm currently paying 13.88c/kwhr for power from the grid.

Most States of Australia are working on a feed-in tariff of roughly 3:1.  Sth Australia have just passed legislation to provide a feed-in tariff of 44c/kwhr.  The scheme is due to commence from 1 July 2008.

I have a solar grid feed system using a 24v Trace inverter which also supplies backup power and could easily be used to accept energy from a line of Listers!! DC or 240v AC

Are any states USA offering good feed in tariffs which could make the idea of "generating energy for fun and profit" a possibility?