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Author Topic: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas  (Read 8293 times)

jzeeff

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Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« on: December 05, 2007, 11:29:42 PM »

I've been researching this but haven't tried any of it.

1) You could convert a Listeroid to a normal Nat Gas engine.  You need a spark plug, lower compression, a carburettor.  Too much work for me although maybe if someone has a kit that is known to work well.

2) There is something called HCCI that involves running Nat Gas but still using compression ignition.  Very efficient and low pollution  To do this:

a) just inject some NG into the intake.  Watch out for over speed conditions.  Or use a propane carb at wide open throttle (do not restrict intake flow to a diesel).
b) Evidently you need to pre-heat the intake air to run on 100% NG.  Ie, run some pipe along the exhaust, then into the intake.  Without this, the compression isn't enough to create enough heat to ignite the NG.  Around 320F should be in the ballpark.
c) you can only run somewhere in the 1/3 to 2/3 power range.  Below this, it won't ignite (too lean).  Above this, you will get something similar to spark knock/detonation from too fast burning.
d) I recommend using diesel to start up, warm up, idle and at 100% power. 
e) The Nat Gas air/fuel mixture should be somewhere in the  40-50:1 (by weight) range.  1/3 the "normal"  mix.
f) normal diesel 17:1 compression should be ok.


3) You can run on a mix of diesel and NG.  Maybe 50/50, depending on load.  Still too much diesel for me.


I would be interested in building the controls to automatically switch to 100% NG when the load and intake temp are correct.

It's not clear to me if water injection (a mister in the intake) would slow the NG combustion enough to run at full power.

It's not clear to me if running 100% NG creates a lubrication issue.  In general NG engines run very clean and last a long time.

It's not clear to me how to build a generator for battery charging that provides a constant load (say 50%).  Normally load goes down as the batteries become charged.

I don't care about waste heat - this is a co-gen situation, so even adding a brake to the drive shaft would be ok to control load.




Doug

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 01:30:25 AM »
Not with precup diesel.
AS built deap cup DI engines are not exactly perfect themselves.

But you may be able to burn 20% NG without any problems at all and improve your engines performance slightly too.

DOug
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jzeeff

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2007, 12:07:07 AM »

Anyone with an single cylinder diesel engine willing to try this ( I don't have one).

Put a load of around 60% on the generator at normal RPM (electric heater/stove or something).   Let everything warm up.

Pipe propane or nat gas into the intake (start with a closed valve of course).

Slowly increase gas flow until either a) it starts to misfire or b) it starts to make some detonation like noise. 

If it misfires it is having a hard time igniting the mix, try a little more load.  If it starts to detonate, the mix is burning too fast,  try less load.  RPM should always stay the same (since it will keep throttling back the diesel flow).

If all goes well, at some point, it should be possible to get to 100% gas and turn off the diesel fuel flow.




Doug

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2007, 12:29:19 AM »
This is not what you are asking or looking for however it talks in great detail about compression ratio, fuel injection timing and suitability of different engines to dual fueling.

Propane and NG have lower anti knock ratings that PG but maybe its something that an help you.

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T0512E/T0512e00.htm#Contents
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mkdutchman

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2007, 01:32:59 PM »

Anyone with an single cylinder diesel engine willing to try this ( I don't have one).

Put a load of around 60% on the generator at normal RPM (electric heater/stove or something).   Let everything warm up.

Pipe propane or nat gas into the intake (start with a closed valve of course).

Slowly increase gas flow until either a) it starts to misfire or b) it starts to make some detonation like noise. 

If it misfires it is having a hard time igniting the mix, try a little more load.  If it starts to detonate, the mix is burning too fast,  try less load.  RPM should always stay the same (since it will keep throttling back the diesel flow).

If all goes well, at some point, it should be possible to get to 100% gas and turn off the diesel fuel flow.

I tried this already, and yes it does "work". Smoke diminishes, and the diesel knock diminished to just a soft thud. I was able to increase propane flow up to the point where the rack shut off. Next summer when I have a little more time I wouldn't mind playing with that a little more...........diesel is a Metro 6/1 IDI, BTW

jzeeff

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2007, 02:47:59 PM »

Great,  you achieved 100% gas on propane, which is lower octane and higher ignition temperature than NG.   Do you know approx what load you were at?  My guess is somewhere in the middle (not idle, not 100%).

Where nat gas is available, it is so much less expensive to run on than diesel.  Plus less hassle.




mkdutchman

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2007, 03:46:13 PM »

Great,  you achieved 100% gas on propane, which is lower octane and higher ignition temperature than NG.   Do you know approx what load you were at?  My guess is somewhere in the middle (not idle, not 100%).

Where nat gas is available, it is so much less expensive to run on than diesel.  Plus less hassle.
I think load was approx 20% or so, I didn't think much about it at the time, just happened to have a propane cylinder and stuff there and was wondering what would happen if I fed it to the diesel,  ;D but now you've got me wondering about full load........

BTW, it would NOT run on 100% propane. The rack would close all the way and ignition would cease until RPM had slowed enough to open it again, whereupon it commenced firing again

jzeeff

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 12:22:58 AM »
Makes sense.  I think you need about 50% load to run on 100% gas.  Not sure if it is necessary to pre-heat the input air.  Hopefully not.

It's not clear if this means 50% of the load before or after de-rating for NG vs diesel. 

NG is clean, convenient and cheap, but it is going to turn your 6HP engine into a 4HP.

Doug

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2007, 01:18:53 AM »
If you can manage to burn 50% natural gas without detonation then why not try and inject 50% WVO to get all they way back to full power. Or maybe 40% NG and let the govener react to load using the Veg oil?
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jzeeff

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 03:27:02 PM »
A mix should work ok, but is still inconvenient for me and expensive (I can't get WVO).

There seems to be a lack of long life, quiet, reasonable cost, small natural gas engines.  I hate to say this here, but I may have to take a Honda GX390, add a nat gas carb, increase the compression (from around 8 to around 12) and run it at 2000 rpm.

If someone tries HCCI and is having problems getting ignition on 100% gas, I suppose a heat gun or hair dryer in the intake would work for testing.


buickanddeere

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 07:26:34 PM »
  The only was igintion is going to occur on 100% LP or methane is via a spark plug.
  There is nothing wrong with running 5-10% diesel for pilot injection and the remainder LP or methane.
   Unless there is some sort of govenor control on the LP/methane injection. That Lister is going to see rpms for a few seconds not possible on diesel alone if the load drops and the LP/methane keep flowing.
    Unless you are hoping pilot injection will completely stop.     

M61hops

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Re: Running a Listeroid on Natural Gas
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 08:24:55 PM »
I plan to play around with propane in my Metro 6-1 someday.  The eaisiest way is to use the injection pump to fire the propane with about 10 or 20 % pilot oil and let the govener adjust the oil volume for load variation.  I keep thinking of making a custom COV plug that holds a sparkplug and lowers the compression ratio to be able to run on any other type of fuel such as propane, natural gas, gasoline or alcohol.  Just change the plug to convert from diesel to spark ignition fuels.  I bet the 'roid would make a great propane or natural gas motor!                            Leland
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