So what does everybody use for inverters?

[4x4_Welder]

I am looking at an off-grid system for a future house, but I want the convenience of grid power.  My basic plan is generator running a charger to charge a 24 or 36v battery bank, inverter drawing from the batteries to supply a normal 110v ac electrical system in the house.  I'll use propane for stove, water heater, and dryer, and primarily wood heat, so no massive 220v draw.  Just lighting, fridge, computer, etc.  I figure about a 10kw inverter should handle all this, my shop will have it's own 20kw 3phase generator to power the equipment.
Anybody have a setup like this, or experience with this sort of system?

[clytle374]

With 6KW I can run the water heater or stove or dryer and their all electric.

I would say you should be fine.

[rcavictim]

That is more or less the system I am working towards now.

[Tom]

We just built a system using Outback inverters and I also have a Trace SW2512. Both will do what you want. The Trace now Xantrex has more features when auto starting generators and more metering and the outback is known to be more reliable. Take your pick. Also your voltages choices are 12,24 or 48. We built a 48 volt system.

[rcavictim]

A mirror.   

[Doug]

I have a Sendon 400w UPS, and a larger 2000 w German thing in the works.

I don't need an inverter so UPS is a cheap ( in my case scrapped freebies ) way of keeping things like the sump pump and Fridge going when the lights are out.

I like the Sendon, no fan, square wave, completely brainless old machine that doesn't react quickly to a a brown out or power failure ( no good for PC ), but it will grunt and bare the weight of 1/3 hp sump pump for 12 hours with a battery bank ( thats a lot to ask of such a small UPS ).

The Liehber is a completely different thing and I'm not sure I will trust it as much.... 

[LMWatBullRun]

We looked at Trace/Xantrex and the Outback, and settled on Outback for the sine wave system;  we have several AIMS inverters for less critical loads that can tolerate square waves.  I liked the reputed ruggedness of the Outback; I had heard enough bad things about Trace reliability to want the most rugged system I could get.  I also installed a TVSS to protect the distribution panel;  we got a Square D QO panel and they make plug-in TVSS systems that take 2 breaker slots.  Seemed a good idea.

Outback can be set up to start a generator, but it isn't as easy as the Trace.  Given that primary generator will be the handcrank Listeroid, and given the size of the battery bank I was not so concerned about having an autostart controlled by the inverter.

[rcavictim]

LMWatBullRun,

I know what a TV is, and SS is why we still have tube amplifiers for our best stereo systems, but what is a TVSS?

[LMWatBullRun]

LMWatBullRun,

I know what a TV is, and SS is why we still have tube amplifiers for our best stereo systems, but what is a TVSS?

Sorry, I use far too many acronyms!

T ransient
V oltage
S urge
S uppression

Cleans up any big spikes that ride the AC waveform into the panel.  They are basically a bunch of MOVs
(Metal Oxide Varistor) bundled up and put into a box.  The nice thing about the Square D setup is that it fits right into two breaker slots, very easy install.  They run about $80.  They also sell one for about $40 that can be wired into anything with 2 hots and a neutral/gound.

The power company wanted to rent me a surge suppressor but when I looked at the fine print, they didn't guarantee a damn thing for my $3 a month, so I thought I'd be better off buying my own and saving the rent.

[rcavictim]

LMWatBullRun,

I know what a TV is, and SS is why we still have tube amplifiers for our best stereo systems, but what is a TVSS?

Sorry, I use far too many acronyms!

T ransient
V oltage
S urge
S uppression

Cleans up any big spikes that ride the AC waveform into the panel.  They are basically a bunch of MOVs
(Metal Oxide Varistor) bundled up and put into a box.  The nice thing about the Square D setup is that it fits right into two breaker slots, very easy install.  They run about $80.  They also sell one for about $40 that can be wired into anything with 2 hots and a neutral/gound.

The power company wanted to rent me a surge suppressor but when I looked at the fine print, they didn't guarantee a damn thing for my $3 a month, so I thought I'd be better off buying my own and saving the rent.

I had no idea that entrance panel rated MOV`s were so inexpensive!  Trouble with this technology is that it wears out with every surge it has to clamp.  Eventually you have no protection.  if they take the big hit they will show that they are done by the Kaboom and black smoking hole where they once lived.   

[Doug]

I use some giant MOV flash supressors on some of the 13,800 in coming feed at work.

They live and die in a flash of lightning.

[duh]

(From a previous write up on inverters)
Disclaimer:
I am not pitching for any brand name anything. The purpose of this thread is to share some info regarding the inverters I currently have within my off-grid system. -Duh

There are 5 inverters in the system. Each one can be engaged with some simple switching. In no particular order are the inverters (all are 12 volt input):
-1 PowerBright 1500 watt (pure sine wave)
-1 Magnum Energy MS2812 (pure sine wave)
-1 Trace SW2512MC (pure sine wave)
-2 Trace DR Series 2412 (modified sine wave)

The drill down:
-1 PowerBright 1500 watt pure sine wave:
--Inexpensive, lightweight, takes care of small jobs which is about 95% of electrical needs. It is the noisiest of the lot, mainly because the two cooling fans run alot even with small loads. Small power fluctuation (116-120v) and hold upwards of 62hz. Problems - none. Time in service - 3.4 years.

-1 Magnum Energy MS2812:
--Cost more than the PowerBright but not quite as much as the units below. Heavy, but managable weight for mounting. Will take care of any job I've given it. Cooling fan seldom comes on. Nice soft touch display. Quietest of all 5, nearly impossible to hear it running. Holds a very tight 120 volts at 60 - 60.5 hz. Problems: 2, Each time it was fully covered by the manufacturer including shipping both ways. Time in Service: 3.4 years.

-1 Trace SW2512MC:
--Cost the most of any in my system. It's an absolute pig - impressive to look at but incredibly heavy for size - dead weight. Will handle anything I can give it. Not as quiet as the Magnum - it buzzes like the DR Series. I've yet to hear the cooling fan run, or to feel any heat from it. Holds a very tight 120 volts at 61 hz. Too bad it doesn't have the display of the Magnum. Problems - none. Time in service: 1.4 years.

-2 Trace DR Series 2412
--2nd most expensive inverters in the system because they are as a pair. They are heavy and likely indestructible for the most part. These have survived two lightning strikes which actually raised cane with the flip-flops and kicked some lights (resetting inverters made everything normal in seconds.) They are noisy - they buzz and can be heard on the phone even with a Radioshack in-line noise supressor. Compact flourescents, motors, etc, all run hotter when using these. Although modified sinewave, they hold a tight 120 volts at 60hz. A couple of items will not accept their output, most notably is a back-up computerized heater (goes right into error). These make excellent backup inverters should all else fail. Problems - nothing a reset didn't cure. Time in service - 4.4 years.

There were three other inverters that I didn't include in the list simply because they were garbage and didn't survive. It gave me great pleasure to take to the dump these:
-1 Coleman portable 400 watt modified sinewave inverter.
-1 Samlex 1000 watt pure sinewave inverter.
-1 Revived 80 lb Rescue Squad 1500 watt inverter that put out a waveform that only an incandescent bulb would like.

-Duh
P.S. for reference, click on the links below for pictures (750k, can be enlarged for clarity):
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Powerbright.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Magnum_MS2812.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Trace2512MC.JPG
http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/DR2412_panel.JPG

[duh]

(From another discussion regarding inverter RFI/EMI generated noise)
********************************
Disclaimer:
The point of this test was to show differences between inverters and AM radio interference as suggested by another forum member.
I have no interest in promoting any one unit over another. In a real working environment it is noteworthy that only the Trace DR2412 projects interference over the phones and the audio portion of a VHS recording. - Duh

The following test was conducted with the radio being a very near exact distance from each inverter (approx. 18 inches).
The radio was in the AM mode on the lower end of the scale (somewhere near where NPR is here on FM - 89.5).

My own personal audio observations are:
The Trace Dr2412 and the PowerBright 1500 sounded the most destructive from the radio speakers.
The Magnum MS2812 was next and although no kitten, the Trace SW2512MC was the "quietest" out of the speakers.
Side note* The Magnum MS2812 was the leader with ceiling fan motor noise (totally silent - no hum).

To allow you to draw your own conclusions, links to the actual recorded sound files are listed below.

Of special interest is when the laptop was brought into range of the radio, it too provided similar sounding interference from the radio's speakers ..

For your listening pleasure, here are the sound recordings:
- Trace Dr2412 Modified Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/DR2412_static.wav
- PowerBright 1500 Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/PowerBright_static.wav
- Magnum MS2812 Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/MS2812_static.wav
- Trace SW2512MC Sinewave - http://diesel-bike.com/System/Inverters/Trace2512MC_static.wav

- Duh

[4x4_Welder]

Good info there guys-
What about ganging inverters?  I know that some can sync to existing line frequency, but will they interfere with each other, or can one be set to "master"?

[jzeeff]

If you have access to utility power, I'd skip the batteries and put in a grid-tie inverter.  Let the utility be your battery.