Author Topic: Cold starting on crappy wvo  (Read 33997 times)

Procrustes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2006, 03:07:00 AM »
I'd like to see the actual figures on cultivating, growing, harvesting and processing oil seeds and come up with a net figure of acreage farmed to acres of economic yeild.

Here's an analysis along those lines from the UK:

"Road transport in the United Kingdom consumes 37.6 million tonnes of petroleum products a year.(5) The most productive oil crop which can be grown in this country is rape. The average yield is between 3 and 3.5 tonnes per hectare.(6) One tonne of rapeseed produces 415 kilos of biodiesel.(7) So every hectare of arable land could provide 1.45 tonnes of transport fuel.

To run our cars and buses and lorries on biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares."

<http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/11/23/feeding-cars-not-people/>

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2006, 03:38:33 AM »
....but, how much oil was used in the production of the hectare of rape seed?  How much fuel does it take to press and process the seed?  What is the 'net' result of growing your own fuel?

 To a farmer farming a section (square mile, 640 acres) which is the norm here, to take a hundred acres to grow enough Canola to farm the rest would be in increase in work and less income, but a cheaper fuel bill next year.

The primary question I get from farmer in this area is this--  "How much land do I have to take out of *cash* production to supply my fuel?"  and then there's this one--  "So after I farm all year and get the crops sold, I then have to press seeds and make fuel all winter instead of go to Arizona and play golf ?"

This is Canola country, but it's a VERY hard sell to ask a sho nuff farmer to farm his own fuel in addition to what makes his living.  It's going to take "Big Energy" to invest in plants that takes oil seeds in return for fuel credits.

 The reason diesel tractors are so popular and economically feasible is because they save labor.  It does no good to start a labor intensive enterprise to feed the tractor.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

rocket

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2006, 05:05:46 AM »
i looked into growing my own fuel and have leanings toward doing it. i have good farm land in wisconsin and can grow enough oil seed, sunflowers being my choice, to produce 100 gallons of fuel per acre. using organic methods it takes about 1/10 of that to grow it and reduce it to oil. there are additional steps besides filtering to be usable in a diesel engine, the first being degumming, which i seem to recall being washed with water.. unfortunately those notes are on the puter at the farm. the economics are not bad when you consider that organic fresh cold pressed sunflower oils sells for a small fortune and you can use the left over for your fuel. it also provides a survivalist like myself a backup to there being no more fuel. it saves well in seed form. and only really breaks down bad after it is pressed.

Mr Lister

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2006, 12:04:34 PM »
Procrustes,

In the UK about 40% of our road vehicles run on diesel, mainly the commercial vehicles, and about 40% of the cars.   Everything else is gasoline, apart for a few LPG and electric and steam cars!

The figures that you found rather assumed that everything ran on biodiesel, which clearly can never be the case.

The truth is that we do have spare arable land here, which could be turned over to growing oil seed rape.  The oil produced could be used to make locally produced biodiesel, in the same way that some German Farming co-operatives are now doing.

IMHO, growing oil crops is never going to replace all the petroleum fuel needed for road transport and farming, but it could possibly be used to offset possibly 10 or 20%.

For this to become viable, petroleum oil will have to remain at around $60 per barrel, to help stimulate these alternative renewable fuel markets.   So long as we have cheap petroleum, these markets and alternatives will struggle to develop, unless they are given a Government incentive - such as has occurred in Germany.

If, I were to run my vehicles and my household requirements solely on rapeseed oil, I would be looking at about 5000 litres per year,  which I think is about 30 acres of rape, which is clearly not practical for every household.

Consequently every household will continue to use a mix of fuels and electricity generated from a mix of fuels.   If one particular fuel becomes cheaper, as a result of other fuels rising in price, then the energy industry will move in and utilise it.  They always use the cheapest fuel.  Once that was coal, then it was gas, and now it may be coal again.

The UK energy policy has got way-laid by environmentalists and anti-nuclear institutions.   Britain only produces 2% of the worlds CO2. Even if we cut  that by 50%, it would be a drop in the ocean compare to the ever increasing outputs from China, India and the USA.

Experts, and well respected government scientists are now saying that we must start building new nuclear plants immediately,  there is no other option, otherwise we will face severe power outages by 2010, 2012.

Whilst I personnaly am not a nuclear proponent, I tend to agree, that the time for deliberating is over and we must act now. Typically a nuclear power plant takes 8 to 10 years to build before it starts generating.    9 of our 13 remaining 1st generation plants will be decommissioned by 2010. There will be a shortfall of about 20% of the electricity requirement by 2010.

This is why I am investing in 75 year old Lister technology, and finding my own personal alternatives.



Ken







GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2006, 12:35:01 PM »

Experts, and well respected government scientists are now saying that we must start building new nuclear plants immediately,  there is no other option, otherwise we will face severe power outages by 2010, 2012.

Whilst I personnaly am not a nuclear proponent, I tend to agree, that the time for deliberating is over and we must act now. Typically a nuclear power plant takes 8 to 10 years to build before it starts generating.    9 of our 13 remaining 1st generation plants will be decommissioned by 2010. There will be a shortfall of about 20% of the electricity requirement by 2010.

This is why I am investing in 75 year old Lister technology, and finding my own personal alternatives.

Ken


technically speaking we SHOULD have started building aa minimum of five new nuke plants at least five years ago, and started more in the interim, but short term shareholder interests don't sit with 20 year plans on investment infrastructure.

what probably will happen is shortages breeding crash build programmes with corners cut

TRUE STORY

I was talking to someone last week who contracts within the industry, doing a lot of the trends and analysis stuff, some REALLY fascinating stuff there but unfortunately I don't feel able to repeat what were private conversations in a public forum, however, he was telling me that he was speaking to someone senior in our energy generation industry, and they casually dropped into the conversation in a rather throwaway "everybody knows this" manner that "the UK" is pulling investments out of the USA as fast as it can.

eg build a widget factory in the US and like it or not the US government has control over production and costs

pure speculation on my part now, but it is a known fact that the USA are world kings at per capita energy consumption, so it stands to reason that if there is a "wall" they will hit it first, and any investments based on US soil will be affected.

I see india and china are both discussing building pipelines to iran / iraq

the thing that troubles me most is I live in devon, which used to produce a third of the UK's milk and a third of the meat, and for some two or three years now I can drive miles through the country and hardly ever see any fields with livestock in them.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
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rocket

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2006, 01:20:12 PM »
you are correct on two points. first that nuclear power is the answer. it is cheap, clean, safe, and renewable. the reason we dont have as much in america is pressure for the oil oligarchy and politics. second, that white christian america is being destroyed by design and enemies in high places have been moving in settlers (lured with free food housing medical....) that are neither white nor christian while changing the laws to impede manufacturing and the production of wealth. america grew strong and rich when there was liberty to produce. now instead of imports bearing the tax burden, it is american business and its people. this has caused a movement of production from this country to other countries. this has been done by design and americans had better wake to their destructions. our children will not inherit the blessings of liberty but the chains of slavery for our slothfulness. rather than accept their chains and drink at the tit of their over priced oil, i will go the extra step and work the extra hour to become as self sufficient as possible. despite their continuing to enact administrative laws (such as banning lister imports) to limit my ability to do so

Procrustes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2006, 03:42:28 PM »
The figures that you found rather assumed that everything ran on biodiesel, which clearly can never be the case.

My post caused some confusion.  Hotater was wondering about the viability of oil crops, so I posted those figures to demonstrate that in fact biodeisel can't be regarded as a solution to our energy woes.   I agree that biofuel will mitigate our energy shortfall.  There are environmental costs though, namely the conversion of rainforest fo rape field.

Stan

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2006, 05:50:13 PM »
Rocket....Don't go blaming your (american) forces that are "globalizing", it's a world thing.  Same thing happens here in Canada.  There's some pretty powerful people out there divvying up the world between them and we (you and I) don't count.  I just heard your government is selling off 5 or 6 of your biggest ports (NY, San Fran...etc.) to a Saudi Arabian company to run.
Stan

rocket

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2006, 08:56:45 PM »
they arent my forces or my government. i belong to a different kingdom with a different king and different laws. they handed the panama canal and the pacific ocean deep sea port to china a few years ago. it is nothing new. only difference is i have been awake to their destructions for sometime.. just waiting for the sheep to wake up and darn if they arent very sound sleepers.

quinnf

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2006, 12:15:26 AM »
Rocket, how many crops/year can you get out of sunflower in your neck of the north? 

Quinn

solarguy

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2006, 12:26:57 AM »
My .02...

If only it was as easy as building more nukes.  I'd be all for it.  Maybe you guys can solve a couple of my objections to nuclear energy. 

1.  How long do you have to store the longest lived radioisotope produced in the making of nuclear electricity before it's "safe"?

2.  If you amortize the whole storage expense (secure and monitored) in any real world reasonable way, what does it add to the cost of a kwh to store said waste for specified time period.

3.  What is the lifespan of a good nuclear plant?  How much does it cost to decommision said plant?  How much does that add to the cost of a kwh?

4.  How can you guys who are distrustful of big government think they will do a good job at this?  Nuclear energy is totally immersed in big governments.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing the analysis.

Finest regards,

troy

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2006, 12:53:10 AM »
1)  Much longer than me or anybody that remembers me will be around....10,000 years, I think?

2) That is a cost of doing business.  When my cousin and I were reading about the "coming years of free (nuke) power" in mid 50-s Popular Mechanics he said nothing that good will ever be free.
   He just retired from Southern Power where he oversaw seven nuke plants.

3)50 years, but most have been taken out earlier.  The cost is whatever it is...again, the cost of doing business that the customer eventually pays.  It's no different than reclaiming a mine or capping a well or cleaning a super fund site.

4) I never said I trusted them, but what are the options?  You want a nuke next door that was designed and built by the lowest bidder with no oversight?  The only people WE can hire and fire is through elections.  We just got to hang them on a hook when we hire them and only turn them loose to do good things.....and WATCH them!

How much tourism dollars have been lost to the hydro plants of the West?  What ARE wild run salmon really worth? How much diesel in burned hauling coal from Wyoming to points east to turn into electricity.  (one hundred, hundred ton  coal cars every ten minutes through the Platte Valley.  24/7)

Why DOES every kitchen need a can opener and an egg beater powered by dino fuel ??  Does hair not dry by itself anymore??

Nuke power is over-ripe for massive standardization--- If three or four designs were hammered out to utilize varying conditions of cooling water, access, ect....then all would be cheaper and engineers could transfer and inspectors would only have nine million pages of specs and regs instead of the seemingly endless supply of them now.

 The real problem with government is too much of it with a mission statement of "keep my job".

  By re-designing every thing from scratch it keeps the private sector beholding to the tax money spenders....Just exactly HOW many schools need to be designed??  Any school district *should* be able to buy a set of plans for ANY school in the world for $5K....but they pay millions.  It's the same with nukes, refinerys, mines, hospitals, courthouses and cop shops.

...it's also why they dig ditches to put water lines in just after the street has been paved.   :-\ :-\
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Procrustes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2006, 01:10:55 AM »
I see now why I confused hotater and MrLister.  Here's what I said:

Here's an analysis along those lines from the UK:

"Road transport in the United Kingdom consumes 37.6 million tonnes of petroleum products a year.(5) The most productive oil crop which can be grown in this country is rape. The average yield is between 3 and 3.5 tonnes per hectare.(6) One tonne of rapeseed produces 415 kilos of biodiesel.(7) So every hectare of arable land could provide 1.45 tonnes of transport fuel.

To run our cars and buses and lorries on biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares."

<http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/11/23/feeding-cars-not-people/>

Whereas I should have said:
Here's an analysis along those lines from the UK:

"Road transport in the United Kingdom consumes 37.6 million tonnes of petroleum products a year.(5) The most productive oil crop which can be grown in this country is rape. The average yield is between 3 and 3.5 tonnes per hectare.(6) One tonne of rapeseed produces 415 kilos of biodiesel.(7) So every hectare of arable land could provide 1.45 tonnes of transport fuel.

To run our cars and buses and lorries on biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares.  There are 5.7m in the United Kingdom.

<http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/11/23/feeding-cars-not-people/>

My point was that the UK requires 25.9m hectares of rapeseed to fulfill its road transport needs, whereas the UK consists of 5.7m hectares.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2006, 01:51:46 AM »

1.  How long do you have to store the longest lived radioisotope produced in the making of nuclear electricity before it's "safe"?


isotopes are EITHER long half life, OR dangerous, in the radiation sense.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2006, 02:12:53 AM »
Procrustes--   I'm easily confused...especially when I don't know exactly how many acres or sections a 'hectar' is?   :D

I think you made my point-- free energy is VERY expensive.

After spending a year with the Uncle in a Third World country many years ago, I figured the price we pay for oil is well worth it to have flush toilets that actually go somewhere besides the gutter and roads without ruts. 

We buy comfort with what flows from the ground nearly free.  We drive a tractor instead of grow food for an ox.  We grow food for sale and buy food cheap.  Fuel cost are slow to be assimulated in the economy, but don't ever change direction.

Reality is unhandy sometimes, but durable.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.