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Author Topic: Cold starting on crappy wvo  (Read 33983 times)

sb118

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2006, 05:48:37 PM »
Guy,

Your glow plugs arnt vaporising the fuel they are raising the compression ratio.

the glow plug is simply a way to artifically raise the compression ratio to a point where the fuel is easily lit

Peace&Love :D, Darren

Umm, i think you'll find glow plugs are called glow plug, because they, umm, glow. Because they get hot.

How would a heater plug increase the compression? I'm genuinely confused now.
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2006, 05:49:58 PM »
Guy,

Your glow plugs arnt vaporising the fuel they are raising the compression ratio.


no they aren't

you need to learn about something called "free electrons"

free electrons are what you need to get a flame front burning, the more you have the faster it burns, stick an alloy head on a petrol (gasoline) engine and it absorbs more free electrons than iron, so the flame front is slowed down, so you can run higher compression ratios.

I NEVER said glow plugs were vapourising the fuel

glow plugs elevate the mean energy levels in the combustion chamber, so less free electrons are lost to the cold material, so more remain to propogate the flame front, so enough are present to get proper ignition.

Quote

Before you start skirting my point lets think about it in a diesel the fuel is lit off by heat the heat comes from compression


technically it's "energy" in heat form.

guess what happens in a heated / compressed gas?

aye, more free electrons.

look up brownian motion, electron shells, etc

Quote
the glow plug is simply a way to artifically raise the compression ratio

no

glow plug makes no measuareable difference to compression ratios or pressures, not even 1 psi

that's a fact

Quote
to a point where the fuel is easily lit without using engine componits that can withstand such high cylinder pressures for long peroids of time.  CHECK OUT MY ORIGNAL POST!

you're about 5 miles up the wrong path there.

cylinder pressures aren't that high in real terms, and as the piston moves the flame front burns, there is NO "bang", creating more gas to fill the increasing volume, in an ideal world maintaining an even pressure throughout the power stroke.


Quote

Rocket,

Anyone that loves their injection pump should run veggie oil it has a much higher lubricity than diesel fuel hense lower friction and operation temperatures. (BIG OIL HATES US)

viscocity is higher, particulates are higher, injection pumps are designed to work with diesel, maintained they will last decades.


Quote

Hotater,

Big oil hates us but say they love us and you believe them!

Dribble/leaking injectors effect performance because it disrupts injection timing nothing to do with spray pattern.

nope

atomisation = max surface area for volume of injected fuel = max surface area for free electrons to interact = steady flame front speed = steady cylinder pressures = useful power stroke = low bearing loads = long lasting engine + efficiency.


Quote
Spray pattern is stressed because with a thin fuel it shows weither or not the pintel and seat of the injector is in good condition.

nope, see above

Quote
Heat IS compression.

nope, compression generates heat, doesn't help spray patterns or atomisation one iota

Quote
Veggie is flat out better in EVERY way than diesel.

nope, it is inferior in every single way, EXCEPT cost, and that is only because it is a crude, unrefined non-distillate fuel.


Quote
Better lubricity, higher cetane# and is renewable

My truck when running on canola oil has more power less diesel knock and is easily twice as smooth when running.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

exhaust gas / oil / bearing material analysis?

no, didn't think so....

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2006, 06:12:38 PM »

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:45:20 AM by kyradawg »

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2006, 06:41:29 PM »
Guy,

Im sorry for disagreing with your omnipatant posts please forgive my feable minded ideas.

There must be somthing in the water that got me thinking that the cs valve idea is a good one and my theory solid!

You've taken almost everything that I have said out of context and would probablly do so again if I was to rebute.

I think anyone can see where you are coming from.

Brothers please read what I have posted because I am really proud of the ideas Ive put forth.

I even gave myself a clearer understanding of whats going on!

Believe me veggie oil IS the way to go.

Peace&Love :D, Darren


that's bull and you know it

the CS valve raises compression, which raises the amount of free electrons, which means when the cold engine absorbs extra there is still enough left to propogate a flame front, that ain't me putting a spin on something, or putting anyone down, and having an agenda, that is basic engineering fact.

I burn about ten litres of diesel a day on average, and it cost me US$1.60 odd a litre, and I could get all the WVO I could use for absolutely nothing, and I won't use it, because it is inferior.

it is as much a false economy as using cheap and inferior lube oil, hey, why not use WVO for lube oil too? it WILL work and you lister WILL run on it, many hundreds or thousands of hours.

I _might_ someday consider running the lister on WVO, that will be AFTER I get myself an alfa-laval, and AFTER I build myself a slow filter bed........

don't matter WHAT diesel or heating oil or any similar distillate oil rises to in cost, cos everyone else is going to face the same rises, and my old lister is still a far more efficient motor than anything more modern / faster revving, so I will ALWAYS be ahead of the curve.

when oil rises to 150 bucks a barrel then vehg oil will be economical to distill purify, and then I'll run it no worries, and I'll STILL be ahead of the curve.

at the moment I can save more every year by insulating and efficiency than I can ever hope to save by running WVO alone.

as of today if I chose I could switch from the grid to the start-o-matic and cut my electricity and heating bills in half, using distillate fuel.

a single 45 gallon drum of distillate fuel will last my lister long after the grid goes down and everything descends into anarchy, before that drum of fuel runs out I'll be busy trying to keep away everyone attracted to my burning lights, and that includes the state in the form of police and so on, who will claim their need is greatest...

If I wanted to burn un-purified WVO the ONLY two things I would consider would be a small turbine or a furnace

do yourself a favour, get a clue and download
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylWVO.pdf

these are people who did a SCIENTIFIC analysis and comparison

note DOUBLE the iron content in oil analysis vs the diesel distillate engine, that suber lubing WVE was wearing out the engine TWICE as fast as diesel, note the LOWER torque and BHP, not seat of the pants crap and wishful thinking, fact.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2006, 07:33:53 PM »
In the first days of bio diesel a good friend got a distributorship.  I got samples for the VERY large gold mines that I sold steel to.   Four mines tested it and rejected it on several fronts, BUT said additional components or processes might make it worth while in the future.  FYI--Nemont Gold is delivered about 300,000 gallons of diesel a week.....Barrick Gold Strike is much bigger.

I have a BUNCH of WVO and WMO stored, but just don't have the time to MESS with it.  Too much else to do....and somebody else is buying red diesel.   ;)

One of these days I hope someone buys the property that would like to use the natural hot water to help filter alternate fuels and wants to fund a semi-automated system...but then I still have a LONG way to go to get WVO and they deliver diesel....sometimes bio is more trouble than it's worth.....to me anyhow.

Oh, I have a 7.3 L PowerStroke and I pre-heat it before starting on these brisk below zero mornings.....I preheat it with LISTER power!!  It's the only thing that cranks reliably.   ;D

I've always understood  Cetane is lower in veggie than dino.  Check it out.

I  LOVE big oil companies!! They do what I can't and charges me less for oil than the 'sensitive' water companies charge for what most everybody gets for near free!!

Earth First-- we'll drill the other planets later.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2006, 07:42:09 PM »
Guy,

I hear you brother and I really am sorry that the man has you so fooled.

Gez I did not want to have to go through all of this but if it stops just one drop of diesel fuel from being burnt to me it is worth it.

I said that veggie oil has a higher lubricity than diesel. I did not make any statement as to the lubricity of wvo because no two batches are the same.

From my experiance there is a lot of negitive propaganda on the jonrney to forever site BUT if you have the ability to read between the lines there is some good info.

Dude whats your point about the cs valve you just like to talk about them?

Please make me understand how a fuel that has a higher cetane # and higher lubricty is substandard to diesel crap!

Screw wvo my goal is to propagate awareness that there is a better fuel than diesel and we can grow it.

WVO is fun and if all your concerned with is economics cool but its chump change compared to the cash crop of straight vegetable oil.

I am not sure that you understand what cetane is in relation to a diesel engine?

Cetane can be measured by specific gravity canola oil atoms have a higher molecular weight than diesel which is directly related to the cetane number of a fuel.

Hotater you have been mislead!

Guy do a little research on Rudulf Diesel he is the guy that cam up with the whole compression ignition thing. His motors ran on guess what? VEGETABLE OIL!

Here's what happened Diesel built an engine that ran on veggie oil. Henery Fords model T ran on ethanol. Then some rich folks in Texas and other various places struck oil well shit what are we going to do with this shit a bunch of elbow rubbing and a few killings later Diesel being one of them. Diesels dont run on veggie oil anymore and Henery's T well that's for gasoline.

Please dont subscribe to thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Oh and by the way Irac has nuclear weapons ::) Big oil didnt say that did they?

I Darren Price Frye from personal experiance do solomly swear that my 1987 Ford f-250 has more power, less engine noise, faster start up and a smooth organic feel that is undescribable when running on vegetable oil (canola/rape).

Believe it or not

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 07:55:29 PM by kyradawg »

kpgv

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2006, 08:17:55 PM »
Mr. Diesel running his engine on SVO had more to do with availability and utility than some act of "benevolence".
Same with Ford and "alky".
As an aside, I remember hearing or reading once, that originally, Diesel intended to and tried to run his engine on "powdered coal", which was a dismal failure.
The economic fact is that producing petroleum fuel(s) is less labor intense (cheaper) and contains more potential energy per weight and volume (more portable) than VO.
The attraction for me to WVO is the "No" or very low cost.
It is more of a hassle dealing with it than just going to the filling station. It all factors in.

Kevin 

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2006, 08:49:15 PM »

cetanes, yeah, I can give you a textbook definition if you like, and octane, and alkanes, and flash point

I can even tell you that the way cetane and octane etc are calculated, in a ricardo or the modern equivalent, a whole host of other factors are tightly controlled, and what really fucks them up if you try and use them as gospel for a motor such as a lister is induction air temperature, unless you run LOTS of preheat to get it up to just below 70 celcius, and injection timing, which is always (from memory)
13 degrees BTDC

these (analysis) engines and ratings are there so you can compare one fuel to the next, they do not tell you which fuel is "best" because that depends on the specific application and therefore engine.

diesels, otto diesels, semi diesels, TVO, you name it I worked on em.

Genuine lister was DESIGNED for

a/ Distillate fuel ONLY
b/ viscocity <50 seconds redwodd @ 100 farenheit
c/ asphalt <0.5%
d/ sulphur <1%
e/ calorific value >19000 btu/lb
f/ s-gravity <0.88

bloody stupid to say because the first diesel ran on peanut oil then peanut oil is best, there wasn't a bloody petrochem industry then, fuels where what you could find, hell theres a whole history lesson in things like how producer gas was accidentally discovered and all the rest of it.

you want an "evil megacorp" argument? Ok you can have one.

1/ No such thing as "big oil", it's "big energy"
2/ energy is like heroin addiction, the addict denies he is addicted, won't give up, and needs more every year for the same hit
3/ "big energy" might fan the flames of addiction, but it isn't exactly a challenging task
4/ in REAL terms fuel now is cheaper than when my dad was a lad, it's only "expensive" for those of use who remember pre 1973 and have rose tinted glasses
5/ "big energy" might be a "dealer" and "pusher" for our "drug" of choice, but my god is it ever a quality product, with fabulous quality control from batch to batch.
6/ big energy might be all those things above, but never overlook the "BIG" in "big energy" economies of scale means they can do things you can't even dream of, and THAT means efficiency, and that means maximum calories per of usable fuel out for minimal calories of fuel in and used in production, they can beat any home set up by at least three orders of magnitude, that's 1000 times less waste energy that you or I can do it for.
7/ WVO + biodiesel or whatever you want to call it simply aren't an alternative, nobody understands just how much we use NOW...  88 million barrels per day.....
8/ the USA DAILY demand in the 3rd quarter of 2005 was 20.77 million barrels per DAY, you produced 8 million.... the ENTIRE production of ALL the americas, north and south, including all the offshore oil and canada, greenland, etc etc etc, is BARELY enough to supply the United States ALONE....
9/ the former USSR, western europe, china, india and the rest of asia used 13 million barrels a day, TOGETHER.
10/ where are you going to grow this biodiesel? because without petrochem byproducts such as fertilisers you aren't going to grow shit, never mind enough food to feed yourselves... how you going to transport it? where is the energy coming from to refine it?

NOW I'm here to tell you something.

Do you REALLY want to know why a hell of a lot of the world hates america?

Well, you take a listeroid engine built by people on a wage that wouldn't keep the average westerner supplied with bog (toilet) paper, and then you take that fucking great lump of cast iron and you crate it up in fucking great lumps of wood, and then you ship the bastard half way around the world, and THEN start whining about economic and ecological sustainability.

You any idea how much of that cheap "dino" fuel powered energy you consumed to get that lump in your back yard so you could whine about people burning dino fuel?

Did you paint the bitch? what in? what was the paint made from?

What do you use for lube oil?

How about the paper for gaskets and fuel filters? thought about the ecological aspects of that and how much dino fuel power went into it?

you never thought about these things and did the numbers, you don't have to, you are fortunate to be a citizen in what is by far the most energy rich country the planet has ever seen.

I am NOT trying to start a flame war here or bash the yanks, but I gotta tell you the one thing you CANNOT do is start banging the enviornmental drum about big oil, capitalism, and sustainability, when your road to PERSONAL sustainability is paved with kilowatt hours that other peoples cannot even dream of having at their disposal.

Now, if you picked up an old american made engine local to you, you would have disarmed my entire argument, as it is you need to save all the energy used in building your listeroid, shipping it to you, painting it, making all the spares you use, making all the consumables you use such as gaskets and filters (and shipping them to you too) before you can even start on trying to claw back some of the energy used in making your WVO, before you can even start on being energy neutral.

Of course if you were to turn around and say "balls to the eco shit, I'm doing this cos it is CHEAP and I am a tightwad" then hats off to you, but it is bogus to draw a line under GETTING a listeroid and then maintaining a listeroid and claiming that all anyone is allowed to consider is the fuel you use.  no fair.

like I said, not a flame or antagonistic, so I hope it don't come accross that way, two peoples separated by a common language and all that.



it's a shame but emissions push harder than economics, but anyway, here's a decent paper (authorised by the SAE so it ain't crap) about free electrons in combustion, diesel specifically.

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-0549.PDF
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2006, 09:26:35 PM »
Good post, Guy--

There have been some pretty good essays done on tracking caloric energy from 'cradle to grave'.  Solar "free" energy is one of the most expensive when the energy used for the technology is tallied up.  Hydrogen cars are an economic joke.

I saw the miles of wind turbines on South Pass/Elk Mountain Wy. last week.  I can't help but wonder if they'll last long enough to pay for themselves at a million $ a copy.  How much oil did they 'cost' versus what they save?   They stand on top of the Overthrust Belt oil deposits...wouldn't it have been better to use the million dollars for a hole in the ground that nobody has to LOOK at?

I'd like to see the actual figures on cultivating, growing, harvesting and processing oil seeds and come up with a net figure of acreage farmed to acres of economic yeild.  Farmers in this area typically run 100% cultivation to yeild.   Water, fuel, fertilizer, and seeds are all MAJOR expenses.  Land is $100/acre.... with water is $3,000.

Where a farm could do well on bio is by planting the corners (round irrigation pivots, square fields) with drought resistant oil crops and using the oil to run irrigation pumps.  That's already being done in the Third World.   In this country it's much cheaper to use on-grid electricity to run pumps and put a swing-out extension on the pivots to water the corners and grow something that SELLS.

I'd much rather keep acreage in soybeans and corn to feed the hogs, cows and chickens I eat and keep the oil wells producing. 

What else is oil good for?  What would we do with it if we didn't burn it or turn it into something else?
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2006, 09:42:22 PM »

What else is oil good for?  What would we do with it if we didn't burn it or turn it into something else?

It's a human thing, you assume the thing that YOU do or touch is all there is, so everyone assumes running cars is like 90% of world oil use, it ain't, it's a minor amount, still a hell of a lot, but a minor amount.

Industry uses vast amounts, especially if you correctly include agriculture in industry and logistics (transport) of all those goods and services into industry, for axample all plastics.

But, industry uses even more vast amounts of energy, staggering amounts... for example making 1 kilo of aluminium (raw pure ingot, not alloy) from alumina takes a shade under 16 KWh, this is AFTER you mine the bauxite and AFTER you smelt to alumina, and we produce over 25 million tons a year now, so 25,000,000 x 1,000 x 16 = 400,000,000,000 KWh per annum for this alone, that's a CONSTANT day and night consumption of about 500 million kilowatts

medicine uses vast amounts (syringes and other equipment) and don't forget tyres, coatings such as paint, lubricants, fact is you can't touch anything not involving oil, not even food (fertiliser)
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2006, 11:00:20 PM »
Kevin,

Mr Diesel and Ford where both wealthy folks and men of vision do you really believe that they were scrounging around for what ever fuel was available?

Mr Diesel was inventing a new technolgy doesnt it make sense that he would use what he believed to be the best fuel possible?

I think the oil industry has tampered with history long enough!

Peace&Love :D, Darren


kpgv

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2006, 11:31:49 PM »
Dawg,

Your quote:  "Mr Diesel and Ford where both wealthy folks and men of vision do you really believe that they were scrounging around for what ever fuel was available?"

Yes, as a mater of fact I do. You can't sell a machine that needs a fuel that isn't readily available.


Kevin 

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2006, 11:57:50 PM »
Greetings from australia!
This is my first post so I'll keep it brief:

1) I measured the compression on my 12/2 (With change over valves)

 starting  :   16.9:1
Running  :   14.9:1

This was with .052 head clearance (as delivered). As a result I've decided to run full time with the c/o valves screwed in.Seems to help with the used ATF mix that I'm running until i can get hold of veggie.

2) Ever heard of the BRONS/HVID system? Also known as the vapourising cup system. Diesel is dribbled under gravity into a small cup in the cylinder head and then ignites from compression alone. Whilst it vapourises when the cup is hot, compression has to light the puddle when cold. I have a couple of these motors.Must be the wierdest (/most touchy) system around.

Keep up the good work, great site!

Brian Gilmartin



rocket

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2006, 12:37:18 AM »
wvo in a lister is a no brainer. here are the dollars and sense.

cetane levels for diesel in america are around 40 most wvo is higher around 50
vegetable oil will varnish injectors over time so additives or some steps need to be used to correct this
admittedly running diesel is easy but very expensive

given a life of engine A on dinodiesel and engine B on wvo

given that wvo has 10% less btus than dinodiesel

if engine A lasts 100,000 hours and engine B 50,000 and engine B needs two new injectors and 2 new cylinders and pistons and injector pumps requiring a couple hours to swap and about $500 in parts to last as long as engine a including fuel additives and extra oil changes.

but over the 100,000 hours engine A uses 100,000 liters of fuel at 1.60 a liter and engine b uses free waste oil costing nothing

lets see engine A $160,000 in fuel. engine b $500 in parts and a few extra hours

how long before you all give it up arguing that it makes sense to burn anything but wvo or biodiesel... in a lister cs or listeroid


start your lister on high speed diesel, switch to wvo before shut down switch back. which in real use would be for oil changes. not real hard
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 12:40:30 AM by rocket »

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2006, 12:45:12 AM »

lets see engine A $160,000 in fuel. engine b $500 in parts and a few extra hours


which is more valuable?

the smelter or the axe?

(you'll either get this or you won't)
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.