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Author Topic: Cold starting on crappy wvo  (Read 33977 times)

kyradawg

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Cold starting on crappy wvo
« on: February 19, 2006, 08:04:46 PM »
.

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 07:05:34 PM by kyradawg »

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2006, 09:29:07 PM »
I've been thinking about increasing compression to see if it makes up for altitude.  Yesterday I reset my piston clearance to .054"  That keeps the intake valve off the piston under no load and starts much better than with the .069 I'd had in it. (Don't remember doing that...I think I missed scraping a gasket off last time.)

The intake valve 'touches' the piston at .052 on mine.  If I assume that's 19:1 compression it'll take some creativity in the pre-combustion chamber to go any higher.

Why not a three way valve so you can stop and re-start on dino fuel...or a CS glow plug from George....
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

sb118

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2006, 09:37:21 PM »
I thought the main problem of starting on cold veg oil is that it is very thick, it doesn't spray properly from the injector, it's more like pouring honey into the engine than fuel. It doesn't produce a fine mist which is needed for ignition.
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2006, 10:13:58 PM »
I thought the main problem of starting on cold veg oil is that it is very thick, it doesn't spray properly from the injector, it's more like pouring honey into the engine than fuel. It doesn't produce a fine mist which is needed for ignition.

yup, it doesn't atomise cold, so somehow you need to heat everything up, or, fit a dual injection system.

TBH the only way I see to do a practical temperate climate veggie oil only lister is to accept a ten minute preheat before starting as normal, so that's resistance wire around the fuel lines and injection system and block heaters in the head or heat up the coolant....

on bigger scales it's been done with a small donkey engine used to warm up a big engine by heating and circulating the coolant and lube oil

in many ways the whole point of the lister is it is a rugged and economical slow speed engine, so you don't start and stop it all the time, let the bugger run, just give it 30 minutes of diesel before shutdown and 10 minutes of diesel for start up
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2006, 10:52:28 PM »
SB118 and Guy,

Are you sure that it is the fuel being atomized that gets the mixture explosive?

Im of the school of thought that the rise in compression ratio and heat due to the displacement of compression space from the injected fuel is what gets the party started.

 The reason I say this is because my ford f-250 diesel has no trouble starting on viscous fuel I just glow the plugs as normal and she fires right up!

Its not like on a gasoline engine where the incoming air charge needs to be humognious and volital in order to ignite.

Remember that in a diesel it is pressure and heat that causes combustion of the fuel not any sort of vaporized fuel or spark.

So I really think injector spray pattern plays little role.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

sb118

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2006, 11:22:26 PM »
The fuel needs to be atomised. It's fine to have the compressed/heated air, but it needs a high surface area to act upon. Having a puddle of cold veg oil sitting on top of your piston isn't a suitable situation to start an engine.

I run my ford transit on SVO and it refuses point blank to start without me working the fuel filter and pump with the blow torch for a few minutes.

It's the heat that does the trick.
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 11:28:56 PM »
SB118 and Guy,

Are you sure that it is the fuel being atomized that gets the mixture explosive?

totally

Quote
Im of the school of thought that the rise in compression ratio and heat due to the displacement of compression space from the injected fuel is what gets the party started.

 The reason I say this is because my ford f-250 diesel has no trouble starting on viscous fuel I just glow the plugs as normal and she fires right up!

Its not like on a gasoline engine where the incoming air charge needs to be humognious and volital in order to ignite.

Remember that in a diesel it is pressure and heat that causes combustion of the fuel not any sort of vaporized fuel or spark.

So I really think injector spray pattern plays little role.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

if you get a poor spray, eg when an injector needs serviceing or you run a different fuel, you get a "rattle" or "knock",

if you got no atomisation you got effectively no fuel exposed to oxygen (surface area of the drop) and you get no combustion

you can prove this to yourself if you like by taking the nozzle out of the injector, it'll still pump the metered amount in, and the motor won't run... do it too long and she'll hydraulic
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2006, 03:00:30 AM »
Guy,

Have you ever ran out of fuel in a diesel vehicle and just poured some oil down the intake? I have and it fires right up! No mist, atomisation just a puddle of fuel in the cylinder vroom! Oh yeah and a shit load of smoke.

If there was a midget in my engine compartment pouring oil in my intake I wouldnt even need a injection pump or injectors!

Your not "totally" sure you think your sure.

sb118,

The reason your having trouble cold starting doesnt have to do with spray pattern it has to do with the injection pumps ability to draw the fuel. The lift pump can only pull so hard if it can present fuel to the injection pump it will either be injected or something will break.

I understand that you guys have been told certian data and have chosen to believe it. I ask that you put your wankers back in your pants and relise its not a cock fight just a brother trying to stop the repression that has been incited by jelious folks that dont own diesels, big oil and just general haters.

Peace&Love :D, Darren
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 03:28:44 AM by kyradawg »

sb118

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2006, 08:44:19 AM »
This isn't a willy waving contest about who can preach about cold starting diesels, calm down.

I never knew that you could pull the injector on a hot engine and simply pour the fuel in. You might consider that the hot piston that the oil lands on will assist in vaporising the fuel.

I'm afraid this isn't information i've been fed, it's what i've experienced for myself, not trying to put a brother down, just trying to point out any possible flaws in the idea of reworking your head, hel if it works, you'll have solved a problem that a lot of people suffer from.
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2006, 10:12:04 AM »
Guy,

Have you ever ran out of fuel in a diesel vehicle and just poured some oil down the intake? I have and it fires right up! No mist, atomisation just a puddle of fuel in the cylinder vroom! Oh yeah and a shit load of smoke.

If there was a midget in my engine compartment pouring oil in my intake I wouldnt even need a injection pump or injectors!

Your not "totally" sure you think your sure.

I don't think I am sure, I am totally sure.

Your example is a quick way to kill a diesel, and note "ran out of fuel" happens to a hot engine, that will vapourise fuel by heat, BUT, unless you have a glass cylinder head you have no idea that it forms a puddle of fuel.

It has been. practically as long as diesels have been around, a rule of thumb that "if the bitch starts, there's not much wrong" and of course the inverse is true as well.

temperate climate winter, indirect injection diesel vehicle engine with electric heaters, remove the wires to the heaters and see what happens....  in my old 1900cc 4cyl renault diesel in the cold with no heaters it just will not start, with 2 heaters it just starts, with 3 its slightly lumpy but ok, with all 4 it not only starts, but runs properly from cold.

---------------------------------------

I want to tell you people something here to put this in perspective, because I have been asked about veg oil before.

I have 2 cars, both non turbo no electronics under the bonnet renault 19 diesels, 1900 cc, indirect injection, heater plugs, 4 lungs.

One I paid 200 pounds for on ebay, the other 175, the 200 quid one I've had a couple of years, done mega miles, towed tons of shit with it, 100% reliable and returns 50+ mpg, the other one I bought a few weeks ago as a spare.

UK road diesel has a lower sulphur content and generally different formulation than american diesel.

Uk road diesel is 97 pence per litre, that's US$1.62 per litre

"red" of farm diesel is half of that, heavier heating oil a third

I won't run veg oil in my car, even though it is a cheap ass car.

I have yet to meet a veg oil enthusiast who has done serious mileage, eg 20,000 miles, eg 1000 engine hours, who has done an exhaust gas analysis and lube oil analysis and a strip and inspection.

I do know a couple of people who'se day job is analysing the combustion process inside IC engines and turbines etc etc

The Lister CS ran on a wider range of fuels than anything short of a turbine, but the one absolute sticking point for Mr Lister on what you ran in his engines was THE FUEL MUST BE A DISTILLATE.

There is a reason for that, purity.

eg it don't matter so much what you burn in the bitch, provided it, whatever "it" is, is pure.

veg oil isn't, waste veg oil especially isn't.

------------------------------

speaking for myself, free per litre waste veg oil vs 40 pence per litre DISTILLATE diesel and even my old 200 quid car the DISTILLATE gets it every time.

it's not "dino" diesel, it's not "fossil" fuel, it is a DISTILLATE

----------------------------------


___IF___ for whatever reason I was forced into using veg oil, first off it would be mixed with pump diesel, but before it ever got that far I would get as close as I humanly could to making it as close as possible to a distillate.

why is veg oil diesel fuel cheap?

because no energy and no work has gone into distilling or cracking.  DO that and it is the same price as pump diesel

is filtering enough?

no

I'd want to run it a few times through an alfa-laval (you ship boys will know what I mean) as a minimum.

course, that alfa-laval needs power to run.

=====================

To all the bio diesel (and indeed listers camshafts were wrong) people I have only one comment.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

yeah, you can run a listeroid on veg, but that free lunch thing means you get to do more work, like more strip inspect and cleans, more lube oil changes and purification, more accurate control of fuel / air / head temperatures, and ultimately more consumption of spare parts, more valve grinding, more sets of shells

====================

If ___I___ had to burn bio diesel and my source of power, and had no choice, I would burn it to make steam and run a steam engine, then I'd use some of that power to make a DISTILLATE for my more valuable motors, like the lister.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 10:30:31 AM »
Replying to myself here

One thing I have realised as I get older.

People tell me "this shit works" and I say "tell me again in ten years when that motor is scrap"

you get a lot longer perspective as you get older, "does it work" don't matter as much as "will it stay working"
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rocket

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 10:38:00 AM »
as a lover of diesels i have owned my share from toyota corrolla to vw rabbits to farm tractors. i have owned 2 cummins diesel trucks, and my vw beetle tdi has in excess of 300k miles. bottom line is this would i run wvo in my dodge cummins... hell no. tear down on the engine is a nightmare, and the injector pump costs a small fortune. would i run it in my vw tdi... again hell no. would i run it in my lister.... lets see .. i can break it down and decarbon it myself in 15 minutes, i can put an all new injector pump or injectors on it in less time than that. i can buy parts for it dirt cheap. heck i can even buy a second engine with the money i save using wvo in the first year.... would i run wvo in a lister ... hell yea i am running wvo in a lister the money i save each and every year can buy another engine. my goodness this ones a no brainer. bottom line if after owning a lister for some time you dont feel confortable decarboning the engine or swapping a part like the injector pump, it is time to find another hobby. i met a guy once that said their farm had a lister when he was a boy and he would get bored and take the engine apart and rebuild it for fun... WHEN HE WAS 8

sb118

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2006, 10:51:23 AM »
"will it stay working"

I drive a Ford, the answer to that question is ALWAYS no  :D
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

hotater

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2006, 02:59:03 PM »
I envy you guys that have been motor heads a long time.  I took up another passion at about six years old and besides 'normal' curiousity (took apart the lawnmower engine) I knew nothing at all about diesels.  My first one was the generator that supplies the power to my new home....It's an Onan and it didn't run.  The learning curve was VERY steep for me.

The first diesel engine I ever owned was a Lister just more than a year ago,  (six more diesels followed in less than two months and then two more  :-\)

This morning it's minus 13 degrees F and before the day is out four diesels will have run.  Cold starting is a fact of life.

If the injector spray doesn't matter why is it there and why won't the engine run right when they dribble?

If heat doesn't matter why have those funny plugs hanging out of the grill?

If veggie worked as well as 'distillate' nobody would pay extra for dino fuel.

In the state of Idaho ALL J.R. Simplot, Idaho Power and Treasure Valley Canal diesel vehicles run on bio-diesel made in the Simplot plants.  Simplot is the frozen potato king and the richest guy in the state.  He produces 88,000 gallons an hour of WVO, 24/7.

Simplot bio is higher priced than red #2 diesel which is $2.13/gal.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

kyradawg

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Re: Cold starting on crappy wvo
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2006, 05:22:39 PM »
Guy,

Your glow plugs arnt vaporising the fuel they are raising the compression ratio.

Before you start skirting my point lets think about it in a diesel the fuel is lit off by heat the heat comes from compression the glow plug is simply a way to artifically raise the compression ratio to a point where the fuel is easily lit without using engine componits that can withstand such high cylinder pressures for long peroids of time.  CHECK OUT MY ORIGNAL POST!

Rocket,

Anyone that loves their injection pump should run veggie oil it has a much higher lubricity than diesel fuel hense lower friction and operation temperatures. (BIG OIL HATES US)

Hotater,

Big oil hates us but say they love us and you believe them!

Dribble/leaking injectors effect performance because it disrupts injection timing nothing to do with spray pattern.

Spray pattern is stressed because with a thin fuel it shows weither or not the pintel and seat of the injector is in good condition.

Heat IS compression.

Veggie is flat out better in EVERY way than diesel.

Better lubricity, higher cetane# and is renewable

My truck when running on canola oil has more power less diesel knock and is easily twice as smooth when running.

Peace&Love :D, Darren