Author Topic: Newbee trying to get of grid  (Read 14011 times)

beegee

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Newbee trying to get of grid
« on: October 24, 2007, 01:59:40 AM »
My first time to log in. Have been interested in getting off the grid for some time now and after finding y'all i'm gathering info.
I live north of Lake Charles,La and the electric service is fair.My questions are 1 How far can you transmit the power from gen to house. 2 Will a 12/2or a 16/2(for later new house built 200 ft from present house) or wait and do an additional 12/2 for the 2nd house.  3 What gen head for the 12 and 16 will work and from whom? 4 What would be the cost for each be. 5 what is a transfer switch for if i'm gona turn off power from main line( wont disconnect completely). ??? ??? ;D ;D

Doug

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2007, 02:46:49 AM »
Not sure where La is but I assume you mane some place in the USA.
If so you need to get a copy of the NEC and look up state and local electrical codes to find out what you need to do and how to wire it.

Rule of thumb is 3% voltage drop is permitted from your source to your load. So you can easily go 200 feet, what you need to do is calulate you max load, size your generator ( 12/2 or 16/2 means a 7 kw or 10 kw generator maximum continuous load so you have some room for a surge) and size your cables acording to the tables in the back of the NEC. Your cable will probably be off the top of my head a #4 or #2 but thats just guessing on the side of caution I've done no calculations. The cable will need to be burried in a trench, cover in sand and pea gravel 3 feet down ( again depending on codes in the US ). That much cable gravel sand and digging will be expensive.

If your completely off grid you don't need a transfer switch but you will need a disconect switch at your home service and you will probably want a second disconect means at the generator house and power panel there. Again code requirements for grounding and bonding need to be considered and where and if aditional disconects and isolation is needed.

I have no idea what this will cost in US dollars.

If you buy an generator head ( ST or any other cheap import )that doesn't have a UL or CSA sticker you will need a special inspection done of just that part and this may cost you an additional couple of hundreded dollars above the cost of the electrical inspection and permits you will need. If you don't have all the proper papers filed and inspections done and there is an electrical fire your home insurance will probably not cover you. If your home insurance finds out you have done this without the proper papers and inspection they will probablycancle your insurance on the spot. You may or may not be able to wire this yourself and have it inspected check with the inspector ( for example a home owner in Quebec can't wire his home even if he is an electrician unless he has the proper documents and is a registered liscenced contractor ).

Lots to consider, but if you can do the work yourself you can save a lot of money. If you like to work with your hands this is a lot of fun.

Doug 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 02:52:53 AM by Doug »
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gpkull

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2007, 02:49:42 AM »
your distance will depend on your conductor size. my 12/2 states 8.8 kw

ronmar

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2007, 02:59:11 AM »
your distance will depend on your conductor size. my 12/2 states 8.8 kw

That 8.8KW is the max sustainable mechanical output of the engine(the KW equivelent of 12HP).   Once you factor in the electrical efficiency of the generator and the losses thru the drive mechanism, a 12/2 is only good for a bit over 6KW max sustained electrical load on the generator...  Rule of thumb for longevity is about 2HP per KW of electrical load.

Ron
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Stan

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2007, 03:24:33 AM »
Beegee (any relation to the brothers?) The most important question  isn't "what size genset do I need" it's instead, how much can I pare down my electricity requirements and still keep my wife?  ???

If you can live without air conditioning, electric stoves, fridges, clothes dryers etc. you can live with a much smaller system.  Propane can supply a lot of the energy to run the  former. (with the notable exception of the air conditioning   ;D
Stan

gpkull

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 03:39:21 AM »
not rufflin feathers her but 2hp per kw good. its a parabolic curve that gets more efficent hp wise as the gen sizes up. power line #50349 is a 12/2 tag states 8.8 kw i also have # 50355 24/2 17.6 kw  this is hp rating of optimum output wicht my vary by fuel (btu per hr) , altitude, or any other rodent which chooses to pee in the fire . 8800 watts (8.8kw) at 240 gives 36.67 amps . very impressive no power factor losses or volts droped. run will drop volts and amps go up if conductor size cant provide. there aint no free lunch

gpkull

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007, 03:46:39 AM »
the 8.8 kw was 8800 watts sorry if i thru in to much to soon that was the 12/2 power wise

cujet

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007, 04:05:07 AM »
I power my house with my listeroid through an "outlet" style connection on the MAIN (main breaker and meter) box. It is on the outside of the house. I use a 6/4 cable as a 125 foot extension cord. It works very well. I use circuit breakers to control what source I get power from. I do not use a transfer switch, . My setup was, of course, much cheaper than using a transfer switch.

The connection is simply like a 4 conductor dryer plug capable of 50amps.

I use a 20/2 listeroid, it is capable of an easy 10,000 watts (by semi educated guess).

The system works quite well and is fairly reliable. But the cost per KWH is far more than the local utility.

I use a 15KW ST 4 pole head. If there is any serious fault with my system, it is the ST head. I should have spend a few more bucks and purchased a better gen head. Getec, Marathon and plenty of other brands are available.

Chris

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peterako

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2007, 11:55:22 AM »
I am powering my new house using a battery bank 1000 AH 48 Volt using a 8 KW (16 KW for 30 min.) inverter charger.
i am running two generators one Lovson 6/1 and a Detroit 2/71. A whisper wind generator is directly loading the batterys.

On this moment i am running every week the detroit 2/71 for 4 hours. Kooking and heating is propane Hot water is from a Sun boiler.

It works perfect and using this charge cycle i need to replace the battery after 18 years. ;D

Greetings from Greece
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rzrbax

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2007, 02:25:54 PM »


First, welcome to the forum, and I do know where Lake Charles, Louisiana is (grin).  I'm in Texarkana.  In order to answer your questions I will share my experience.  I am using a GTC 12/2 purchased from Doug Waggonner in Tulsa, OK.  The engine is hooked to a 7.5 kw ST head and mounted in my barn about 130 feet from my house.  I would opt for a 10 kw head if did it over just for the heavier armature and the flywheel effect and perhaps upgrading later.  Cost depends on a lot of things, but I can recommend Doug at Waggonner Engine Works and Joel at Power Solutions.  A tranfer switch is used to disconnect from the grid and put your generator power into the house.  A 200 amp manual switch should be between $250 and $450 (EBAY has them from time to time).  Mine is a Ronk brand.  I wired my ST head for 120 volt AC output only to get maximum output at that voltage from the head.  I don't have enough power to do AC anyway, so I'm leaving the 220 volts off.  This is easy to do, by the way.  Contrary to the general discussions on this forum this is NOT rocket science.  You don't have to be obsessive about the Listeroid or the ST head.  Sure they can have problems, but they usually work just fine without overhauling them out of the box.  Buy from a reputable dealer, and lean on those of us who have done it. 

But what do I know?  I'm only a retired physics teacher in Arkansas...........rzrbax

rcavictim

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2007, 05:16:43 PM »


I use a 15KW ST 4 pole head. If there is any serious fault with my system, it is the ST head. I should have spend a few more bucks and purchased a better gen head. Getec, Marathon and plenty of other brands are available.


Chris



Chris,

What complaints or disappointments do you have about the 15K ST head?  I mean beyond the yak greased open bearings that can be swapped for good ones and the brush gear on the slip rings that can be improved with adjustment as part of the initial acquisition, replacement of the bridge rectifier with a good one, and assuming you throw away the cheesy tin metal box on top and remotely mount the voltmeter.
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vwbeamer

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2007, 05:44:21 PM »
I'm sure that the 120 volts you have now is AC, your AC comment is confusing ???





First, welcome to the forum, and I do know where Lake Charles, Louisiana is (grin).  I'm in Texarkana.  In order to answer your questions I will share my experience.  I am using a GTC 12/2 purchased from Doug Waggonner in Tulsa, OK.  The engine is hooked to a 7.5 kw ST head and mounted in my barn about 130 feet from my house.  I would opt for a 10 kw head if did it over just for the heavier armature and the flywheel effect and perhaps upgrading later.  Cost depends on a lot of things, but I can recommend Doug at Waggonner Engine Works and Joel at Power Solutions.  A tranfer switch is used to disconnect from the grid and put your generator power into the house.  A 200 amp manual switch should be between $250 and $450 (EBAY has them from time to time).  Mine is a Ronk brand.  I wired my ST head for 120 volt AC output only to get maximum output at that voltage from the head.  I don't have enough power to do AC anyway, so I'm leaving the 220 volts off.  This is easy to do, by the way.  Contrary to the general discussions on this forum this is NOT rocket science.  You don't have to be obsessive about the Listeroid or the ST head.  Sure they can have problems, but they usually work just fine without overhauling them out of the box.  Buy from a reputable dealer, and lean on those of us who have done it. 

But what do I know?  I'm only a retired physics teacher in Arkansas...........rzrbax

hotater

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2007, 09:49:01 PM »
beegee---

First off, what are you trying to do?

If its' to save money on the utility bill, it's an interesting but futile pursuit of economic phantoms.  Saving money by making your own electricity is about like trying to save by making your own garden hose to save six bucks.

If it's for emergency power for occasional outages, determine what HAS to run (water, food, and emergency lighting) and don't plan for microwaves, hairdryers and toasters.....or electric stoves, hot water heaters or air conditioning, either.  It takes a BIG genset to reliably *start* and run ordinary appliances we don't think about while on grid.

If it's a fish camp on that 20 miles bridge you're next to, you don't need that much power...use propane for refrigeration and cut usage in half.

I'm off grid by 22 miles and run a 6-1/5ST about 16 hours a day.  With 3KW of batteries and inverter it would be much better.

Fact of off-grid life--  You can't afford fuel enough to generate enough electricity for one woman.  Their 'footprint' is like godzilla.....<my experience only, you might have a rare one that knows how to sharpen a knife by hand.  ;) )
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trickn7474

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2007, 01:54:43 AM »
I got hammered by Katrina, I would like to run my freezers, the refridgerator,  and a tv when the next hurricane hits. I got interested in listeroids by reading about a guy in Fla. who had a 12-2. I have regular power most of the time , but lose power every five years for a week or so. What do I need? I have a changfa 1115g, but have not finished my genset. I really want a listeroid.

hotater

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Re: Newbee trying to get of grid
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2007, 02:04:34 AM »
Quote
What do I need?

What you 'need' should closely match what you 'want', so the first thing to BUY is a Kill-a-Watt and find out how much power those freezer(s?) and fridge draw when they start.  Then you'll either trade freezers or figure out how to make it work, by alternating freezer times and adding a LOT of insulation while making the condensors remote and water cooled, if possible.
  There are ways of cutting refrigeration cost.......but they are costly.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.