Author Topic: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM  (Read 61083 times)

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2007, 01:51:52 AM »
The main reason small displacement diesel engines run such high compression is so they can actually run....er,..that is, due to their small displacement, they don't generate much heat inside the combustion chamber if they run lower CR. So to make that heat, they squeeze the crap out of the air to make it hot enough to create auto ignition with the fuel. Larger cc diesels have a bigger area to create heat, and so don't need such a high CR.

Keep us well informed with your project. All the power to you for answering those questions in your own mind that others only talk about.
Be sure to move this experiment onto the secret lab, as I'm sure if Big Oil finds out you're successful, they'll come a'knockin!  :o ;D

Zack,

While i do not disagree with your statement about CR versus engine displacement I`ll just point out that the 1.5 and 1.6 litre, 4 cylinder VW Rabbit and Jetta diesels all run 23:1 CR and they are Indirect Injection.  I had read that for a given displacement (in a small engine) the IDI needs higher CR than the DI.

Big Oil has their own better funded lab than I.  They can do whatever they want, and do.  B`sides, my overstressed engine will be a knockin way before they are!   ;D
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2007, 02:22:40 AM »
Today I placed the DC generator I plan to use on the floor on some sheet cork so it would not wander and belted it up.  Spinning the engine at about 600 RPM, I had the generator moving about 1800 and was making 500 watts DC into a 120 volt, 500 watt light bulb load.  The engine was working hard and making a bit of black smoke at each bang.  It wasn`t completely up to temperature although the water came to a boil in the cylinder jacket during the bried test which lasted a minute or two.  I have no hopper or radiator on the engine just now so tests are short.  The water jacket is filled with H20.

I have some bad news now.  The center pins in my coupler apparently clobber the rubber so hard that they today split the rubber in all three sections.  This happened during the low speed load test.  This leads me to think I would be wise to only run this plant at the high end of the flywheel range, say at 1000 RPM.  It will be easier on everything and the rod bearing will be treated more gently while being oiled the best.  In that case I now know what pulley ratio I need to install.  The ratio today was a bit aggressive, making the motor turn slower for the rated generator shaft speed desired.  A worst case test.  It appears that I need to re-engineer the rubber fill in the coupler.  I think I have a workable solution to try.

Nothing like getting answers one needs by actually doing tests with the hardware. Some of you will recall that I`ve been asking this Can you run a China diesel slow? question here for about a year and no-one has come forward with any experience based answers whatsoever.  Well now we`re gonna find out!  If anyone out there would like to contribute financially towards my research which the results will be philanthropically given to the people of the world, I could use and would appreciate the assistance.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

snail

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2007, 03:00:29 AM »
Grand master RCA (grasshopper?)
       The rubber splitting issue may just be a quality thing. I used to work in a firm that made boat rollers and they were made of the cheapest mix imaginable, combined with any leftover scrap. If I were you I'd try again, using better quality rubber.One avenue would be to use short lengths of a good quality hose, even if you have to place one length inside another to get the diameters. One of those red polyurethane boat rollers might be worth a try, although they are a little thermoplastic. This could be made worse by the generation of heat through hysteresis within the material itself.
     Hell, don't give up so easily! I dream of having an engine that makes power at 100RPM! I just don't have anywhere near the dedication that you obviously have! :D

Best of luck

Brian

Tom

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 03:01:55 AM »
If you are open for a suggestion, why not try some of the bushings that go in the eyes of leaf springs. What you've done looks about that size. On my Scout I use these neat polyurethane bushings with shoulders and are split in half.

Here is a sort of pic:

http://www.old.anythingscout.com/parts.php?zoom=92&fam_key=3&part_name=Poly+spring+bushings+II

OD is about 1 1/4 and id is about 5/8
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

snail

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2007, 03:24:27 AM »
 I second what Tom said. :D

Brian

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2007, 03:30:46 AM »
Don`t worry fellas, I`m not giving up.  I said I had an idea.  I was thinking of making the effective diameter of the 5/8 inch diameter cold rolled steel center pin larger by machining three tight fitting sleeves out of hard plastic like nylon.  I would then stuff this into a thinner rubber bushing between it and the outer steel sleeve.  The larger diameter of the center pin will spread the peak forces over a larger area making the pressure peaks on the rubber much lower.

The polyurethane bushings would be a good thing to try but I fear may be too stiff and also are definitely beyond my budget.  I DID mention that I could use a little $ help.  It is precisely because I have no money that I am trying desperately to build this.

Snail,  If you want to make power at 100 RPM, from what I`m seeing here better make the stroke much larger than the bore.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Here is a China diesel you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2007, 06:39:38 AM »
Here is a two minute sound file of my heavy flywheel loaded JD175 being hand crank started, run and then the rack is closed and it coasts to a stop.  No muffler.  700 kB file size.  Windoz Media Player

http://www.area31.org/sounds/jd175slo.wma

Would someone please tell me if this works for them  Thanx.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 07:35:27 AM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

mkdutchman

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2007, 12:23:20 PM »
Yes, it works great for me

moT

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2007, 01:55:42 PM »
Yeah, that sound file worked great for me too, uber kool!

I just started my old 195 engine that I bought back in '82, man, they are loud --   It had not been run in several years, but with fresh fuel run through the injection it started right up. Lots of stinky gray smoke for a bit, then it cleared.

As a cheap source for urethane for bushes you might look at boat rollers available at West Marine, the yellow ones machine very nicely!

moT

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2007, 02:04:00 PM »
I spent hours trying to get that sound file to work. Learning curve thing.  I did not know that one cannot `copy` a sound file, but rather you have to `rip` it.  Who knew?   :-\

Thanx for the suggestions about boat rollers and rubber hose.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

listeroidsusa1

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2007, 11:04:16 PM »
BTW, there is a new Lister type engine being built in India that is even smaller than the hybrid Listers I brought in. They now have a new 4/1 that isn't posted on any of their web sites yet. The owner of the Satyajeet GM90 plant told me about this when he came over to visit with me a couple of months ago. I haven't seen any photos yet but it sure sounds interesting.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2007, 12:23:28 AM »
BTW, there is a new Lister type engine being built in India that is even smaller than the hybrid Listers I brought in. They now have a new 4/1 that isn't posted on any of their web sites yet. The owner of the Satyajeet GM90 plant told me about this when he came over to visit with me a couple of months ago. I haven't seen any photos yet but it sure sounds interesting.

Not to send my own post OT but wasn`t the real Lister 3/1 exactly the same physical size as the 6/1 with just a smaller bore?  That would be preferable to me in a clone than a completely miniaturized version of the CS engine.  Also, smaller flywheels of the `new` 4/1 imply higher operating RPM.  Except perhaps the Indians in Rakjot we all seem to know that when you stroke sandpaper faster the surface wears away faster.   ???
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2007, 11:56:58 PM »
The mini Lister is its own beastie.

From the brand round up thread.

Hindustan Trading Co. “Mini-Listers”
HP/Cyl      6/1   8/1   10/1   12/1   14/1
RPM      650   850   1000   1000   1000
Bore      114.3   114.3   120   127   127
Stroke      133.3   133.3   133.3   133.3   133.3
Bolt space   305x204
Mini-Listers have different characteristics:  All have TRB’s.  6/ and 8/1 are splash lubricated, others have oil pump.  All have shorter stroke than “standard” listeroid.  10/1 may have Direct Injection, 14/1 is only available with Direct Injection.
All have a different foundation bolt pattern than the “standard” Listeroid.  They are also lighter than the “standard”.

http://www.htcorporation.com/
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rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2007, 06:33:30 AM »
FROM Bob G.
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   Re: A China diesel that you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 10:32:38 PM »
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RCA:

been following your project, and finally got the audio file to work,, (kid and her myspace whacks out the puter)

some observations for what they are worth Smiley

1. i doubt seriously you will get a rubber/pin drive to live in this application, the shock loading is quite high
so if you want to use it, you probably need a very tough bushing

2. be sure and use a good quality straight weight oil, because as the engine is bringing that flywheel up to speed
the loading on the rod brg is going to be quite high.

3. the combination of difficulties in forming  the hydraulic wedge at start up, along with the extreme loading
might cause significant longevity issues.

don't get me wrong,,, i understand what you are after,,but
from experience that hard knock that is heard is usually very short lived under normal circumstances
maybe a half dozen hard ones until it comes up to speed,, instead of dozens with the heavy flywheel.

some diesel engine's will destroy the rod brg, crack connecting rods, or break crankshafts from being lugged down
to under the designed parameters, who know's how much margin there is in a changfa style engine.

i am cautiously hopeful if not optimistic with this experiment, i just hope it doesn't cause costly damage.

perhaps a slack belt driven, jackshaft mounted flyweel would allow the engine some reduction in shock loading
on spin up,, i don't know.

something else to consider is the injection timeing in stock form is optimized for around 2500 plus rpm, not for
very low rpm, where the injection event is likely far too early resulting in excessive cylinder pressures.
if you can, you might look into slowing the injection timing a few degree's

you mention being on a tight budget,, i am not trying to rain on your parade,, only expressing a bit of caution.

perhaps after some testing you might pull the big end rod brg and inspect it for signs of stress?

interesting project overall though Smiley

bob g
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2007, 06:34:39 AM »

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   Re: A China diesel that you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 10:54:48 PM »
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One of the mechanics at work said the same thing Bob....

However He thinks this can be overcome with some sort of load limiter for starting.

Injection timing might need to be adjusted as you said
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion