Author Topic: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM  (Read 48382 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2007, 04:48:47 PM »
RCA

couldn't sleep last night, and was surfin around and came up on your setup again

an observation for what it is worth

make and  install an air intake safety shutdown for your engine
in the event that the chinese governor fails for whatever reason and you have a runaway
i don't think you want that flywheel spinning up to 3 or 4 k rpm.

i am fairly certain it would not only wreck your day, your machine, but maybe you or a loved one
or maybe even the neighbor you don't get along with.

for some reason, i had this nagging thing in the back of my mind and then it dawned on me
many years ago as a kid i built a twin engine gokart
in my haste i threw together all my gearing and got it wrong

it was an excersize in ultra slow speed operation
the engines never got up to even a low idle, more like a plung.. plung... plung
and the damn thing was going so fast down the street it was pulling the tears out of my eye's!
if it had actually got up to a fast idle i am sure i would have met an untimely death. :)

God protects idiots and children,,, (i was both and idiot and a child)
by the time we get to be adults, i personally think God just sits back and watches the mayhem unfold :)

anyway the moral of the story,, be safe
i really dread the day we learn of our first serious injury or death on this forum.

on a lighter note

i know you have been designing and working on this for some time, what are your intentions for the unit?
is it primarily a testbed? or are you planning on using it on a more or less daily basis?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2007, 05:14:51 PM »
RCA

couldn't sleep last night, and was surfin around and came up on your setup again

an observation for what it is worth

make and  install an air intake safety shutdown for your engine
in the event that the chinese governor fails for whatever reason and you have a runaway
i don't think you want that flywheel spinning up to 3 or 4 k rpm.

i am fairly certain it would not only wreck your day, your machine, but maybe you or a loved one
or maybe even the neighbor you don't get along with.

for some reason, i had this nagging thing in the back of my mind and then it dawned on me
many years ago as a kid i built a twin engine gokart
in my haste i threw together all my gearing and got it wrong

it was an excersize in ultra slow speed operation
the engines never got up to even a low idle, more like a plung.. plung... plung
and the damn thing was going so fast down the street it was pulling the tears out of my eye's!
if it had actually got up to a fast idle i am sure i would have met an untimely death. :)

God protects idiots and children,,, (i was both and idiot and a child)
by the time we get to be adults, i personally think God just sits back and watches the mayhem unfold :)

anyway the moral of the story,, be safe
i really dread the day we learn of our first serious injury or death on this forum.

on a lighter note

i know you have been designing and working on this for some time, what are your intentions for the unit?
is it primarily a testbed? or are you planning on using it on a more or less daily basis?

bob g

Bob,

Your concern about an overspeed condition is appreciated and already being dealt with in `the plan`.  It is not hard to place a ball valve on the intake air on this engine and that is precisely what I plan to do.  How to activate it is what I am still thinking about.  Having a spring that is `locked and loaded` ready to pull the valve lever closed when a small pin is pulled out seems to be the easiest and most reliable way to store the energy needed for this important operation.  Now the question.  What process to pull the small pin?

A small tachometer generator and a voltage comparator circuit could be used to activate a small solenoid powered by the plant`s on board 12 volt starting battery. One could set up a frequency counter on the AC output of the plant set to trip off at say 75 Hz. Having more than one trip mechanizm would be good for improved safety.  I would like a all mechanical, symple system in there as well if possible.  A centrifugal clutch mounted on the engine shaft which will pull on the pin as the outer housing receives rotational torque might be a simple way to do this.

I am going to all this trouble because I plan to actually use this on a more or less daily basis once I get off-grid.  A machine like this is not available on the commercial market.  Everything out there remotely similar uses much more fuel per day than this plant will.  Having a large battery bank as I do now is key to being able to use a low power plant like this to work in addition to a wind turbine and maybe solar photovoltaic.

I can DIY a suitable wind turbine and where I live I have the wind resource.  Unfortunately I cannot make solar photovoltaic cells myself so acquisition of that power source will take serious money, a resource not presently available to me.

I have no plans to manufacture copies of my `invention` for sale.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

ZackaryMac

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2007, 01:59:12 AM »
Ok, speed-related shut-off:

Cut out of 1/4" plate and weld together a shroud, not unlike a squirrell cage fan has (propane hot water heater vent fan, for ie), starting close and curving away from the bailer flywheel, extending out into a heavy steel tube, curled around to near the intake of the diesel. Now, have a ball valve attached to arms, so tipping this assembly will hinge the ball over on top of the open intake (forget the air filter), choking off the air. Aim this tube at the ball valve.

Theory is, when the engine over-speeds and shrapnel from the cast flywheel starts coming off at 10,000 rpm, it will safely be carried away through the tube, where it will hit the back of the ball valve, encouraging it to come over center and fall onto the open intake, thus reducing available oxygen for combustion, and therefore causing the engine to stop turning. Also, because of the loss of some of the flywheel mass, the whole thing should come to a quicker stop.

 ;D


 I'm always full of ideas.


I never said any of them were GOOD ideas.  :D
Kubota EL300A-R 4hp 12v Generator
Kubota B6100 HST Compact Tractor
Onan RDJA 8hp
1994 Chev S10 w/Isuzu C223
All are diesel.

Stan

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2007, 03:18:21 AM »
Went to a junk yard and poked around some dead fords.  Early 90's or late 80s Taurus' etc.  Looked in behind the left (drivers side) rear taillight, and found the cutoff switch.  It's a little black box with 2 wires coming out of it, and a red button on it.  Inside is a cone, with a steel ball bearing inside the cone.  At the top of the cone is a shut off switch.  When the little black box (1.25" cube??) gets bounced around (as in an accident) the steel ball bearing gets bounced up and hits the switch shutting off the power.  This is meant to shut off a fuel pump in the case of an accident.  This same little black box could be glued to any piece of machinery and hooked up to a solenoid through a relay so that it would activate something like a fuel lever in the case of too much vibration etc.

To reactivate the switch you have to push the red button.

Just my 2 cents (Canadian, that's like 3.5 cents US  ;D ) worth
Stan

Sorry, just had to add that last part, too many years of taking it the other way.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2007, 04:47:31 AM »
Removable safety screen now installed over beltway.  Same diamond mesh panel on radiator frame exterior as well.

Some nice person left a whole 4x8 foot sheet of this material at the dump for me.  A little surface rust doesn`t scare me!   ;D

-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2007, 05:03:07 AM »
Thanx so much for the engineering ideas.  An excessive vibration shutdown may not be a bad idea but would not substitute for an overspeed shutdown which IMO is much more important.  A bit of vibration will not potentially cause property damage and injury like a grenading flywheel.

With BobG bringing this to the forefront of my mind today I have come up with a plan I like that employs a centrifugal clutch to pull the ball valve release pin.  I have room to implement it nicely.  I suspect I will have to fabricate my own from scratch as the commercial ones for go-carts do not have a ball bearing, just a bronze bushing.  Not 100,000 hour rated, so no good.  They also chatter, also unnacceptable.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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project update - almost finished!
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2007, 06:48:27 AM »
Well I am pleased to report that all the frame welding and fabrication is done, the prep work done, painted forest green a couple of days ago.  Yesterday I painted the big flywheel and thought it might look nice red in the center and chrome silver on the outer roll. I had bought a can of so called `bumper chrome` spray paint a couple of years ago and this seemed like a place to try it.  BIG DISAPPOINTMENT!   The finish doesn`t look much more like real chrome than ordinary aluminum spray paint at half the price.  I discovered that the finish was very easy to mark up and was not resistant to solvents.  My equipment needs tough paint finishes that will endure normal wear and tear thank you very much.  OK so today I washed off the silver paint and it got a fresh coat of International Harvester Red.  I think it looks good.  I decided to go with  red for all the parts that move, so the belt shieves, damping coupler, both flywheels, fuel tank filler cap, etc., all get the red treatment.

Speaking if the damping coupler.  My very limited testing totally destroyed the rubber bushings and broke the weld on all three pins.  There are some fierce peak forces happening between flywheel `A` the stock one on the engine, and flywheel `B` the big one after the coupler.  I had a head scratch and rebuilt the thing with larger diameter pins (up from 1/2 inch to 1 inch diameter) to spread out the load on the rubber.  I also discovered that the rubber I had used had air voids in it.  Hopefully the new rubber inserts I have machined are void free.

I realized I have a radiator hose connection placement problem today and that has to be rotated and re-soldered.  :(  It hits the fuel tank.

I still need to clean up and re-paint the DC gen head, install the exhaust system (already fabricated) and install the fuel shut off valving and filter under the big tank.  With some luck I should have this running this weekend, looking for the most part all finished except for the electrical power wiring and control panelboard.

I`ll post more pictures with a report in a few days.

-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2007, 09:25:23 AM »
Today I got the old paint and rust off the DC generator head and a nice fresh coat of Forest green paint on it.  The brush gear has now been serviced and lubricated, working freely and smoothly  (all four brushes were siezed).  DC head is now installed.  Exhaust system is now installed.

Next I want to tackle the radiator upper hose port modification, install the cooling system and fuel system.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

ZackaryMac

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2007, 04:03:28 AM »
Wow, this project keeps you busy.
Any idea how many hours you've got into it now?
 Don't make it too good or you'll have nothing to do when it's done!   ;D
Kubota EL300A-R 4hp 12v Generator
Kubota B6100 HST Compact Tractor
Onan RDJA 8hp
1994 Chev S10 w/Isuzu C223
All are diesel.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2007, 11:52:59 AM »
Wow, this project keeps you busy.
Any idea how many hours you've got into it now?
 Don't make it too good or you'll have nothing to do when it's done!   ;D

Zac,

Truth is I`m doing nothing else until this is done.  No trouble with idle time afterwards, I have some resto work to do next in my house basement in prep allowing for some flood claim insurance work.  As for hours invested, very tons.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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First Light!
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2007, 01:01:54 PM »
Got the plant finished to the point where I could fill the cooling system with antifreeze, clip lead lamp loads to both DC and AC heads and let `er rip.  It was bloody c-c-c-cold out here last night and with the big shop door wide open for the exhaust smoke to escape I found myself worn out and freezing early after about 2 hours of running tests so I packed it in with a bunch of data for my brain to digest.  This was after a long day of working on all the last minute assembly and fixes.  The cooliing system had a major leak and now still has two tiny ones.  One because that white brush-on Permatex thread sealer ain`t worth a shit IMO.  It lets me down EVERY time I try to use it, so those connections have to come apart after draining the entire cooling system  -again- and using teflon tape like I should have in the first damned place.  >:(

First off.  The DC generator was not co-operating and had to be flashed with a 50 VDC power supply and the field and armature connections transposed to get it to propduce power now spinning backwards to it`s previous life.  Fortunately this was accomplished with success and it runs very nicely.  Likewise but dealt with earlier, the AC head and combo starter motor had to be taught to operate backwards.  It runs like a champ.  OK, so both heads are up and working!    :)

My upgraded damping coupler version Beta seems to be working nominally and did not exhibit any signs of distress like the previous Alpha version.  Good!   :)

I discovered that this little engine, with factory injection timing setting and fully warmed up is incapable at 1060 RPM of delivering more than about 600 watts AC when both heads are belted up and only load is placed on the AC head.  At 600 watts it was belching huge amounts of black carbon smoke.  This was a large disappointment.  With a belt change to spin only the AC head I could get ~700 watts with some smoke.   It appears that the power required to spin the two heads  (windage and bearing losses) and the belt friction, adds up to be a significant fraction of my available engine shaft horsepower.  A more efficient belt drive may be worth looking into, or not.  The extra money may be better served on a large displacement engine.  I am a bit disappointed so far.  :(

With only the DC generator belted up I have to start the plant with the hand crank.  No problem.  It was immediately obvious that the DC head is more mechanically efficient and 600 watts DC at 115 volts was obtained with no smoke at what I had to guestimate was the same ~1050 RPM.  I really need to implement a tach right away.  Without the AC head belted up running a frequency meter I cannot accurately determine my RPM.  Since I am spinning in the max safe area of the big flywheel capability I need to be closely and accurately aware of RPM.  This DC gen has been slowed via pulley size to run at 1500 RPM versus the nameplate 1750 where it is rated at 125 volts and 20 or so amps.  At the reduced speed I was able to get it to make a max of 115 volts across my 600 watt incandescent lamp load but only with the field resistor completely dialed out (full field),  This is fine since my primary raison d`etre for this plant is to make about 58 volts actually for a remote 48 volt battery bank, and that is the reason I went with larger drive shieve to more efficiently match the engine.  I plan to load test the DC today and determine power ouput capability and regulation range available with the field resistance while maintaining 60 volts into resistive loads.

I am going to conduct a one hour fuel use test, likely with the DC head at 500 watts and again with the AC head making 500 watts (if it can without smoke).  If my fuel consumption numbers are not stellar I will have a stab at retarding the injector timing.  If that does not improve things I will need to do a major re-evaluation of this entire project.

In order to calculate the size shim to place under the FI pump which I will need to fabricate in order to retard the injector event I have to pull the engine timing case and measure the stroke change of the pump on its camshaft with a magnetic base dial gauge.  The 6 HP@2600 RPM engine timing spec from the factory is 22 degrees, + or - 2 degrees.  That means anywhere from 20-24 degrees BTDC right now if believable. I am thinking perhaps four degrees might be a ballpark to shoot for. This is an IDI precup engine. My GM-90 manual calls for 18 to 22 degrees BTDC and that is for 6-10 HP singles running between 650 and 1000 RPM.  On that my four degrees sounds like a good first target.  Anyone have a good feel for this?

Pics will follow hopefully later today.  Even if it cannot do what I want....damn it sure looks impressive!  8)
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Damping Coupler Alpha damage and Beta upgrade
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2007, 01:22:05 PM »
I had mentioned that the severe shock of the ignition event being transfered through the coupler from the small engine stock flywheel to the large 180 pound flywheel had pounded out my first attempt at a coupler.  This damage seen occurred in just minutes of running with out load.  The original pins were 1/2 inch Cold Rolled Steel and the new ones are 1 inch diameter.  The rubber was obtained from Princess Auto as part of a boat trailer bumper roller.  When machining the new parts I noted air voids hidden in the rubber.  This added in great part to the failure of the Alpha coupler.  I beive that the rubber I have in the Beta version is much less compromised by voids in the material after finding a `good piece` to machine.  In the first photo you can see that as the coupler is separated the pins have actually broken free and two stayed in the rubber.  These were all welded to the engine side originally.  All three welds broke.








Here is the improved Beta version ready to be pushed together.  As reported in my previous First Light post above, the Beta coupler appears to be working very well!  This coupler is of my own design and I give it here freely to the DIY community as a gift.  I think there are applications where a Lovejoy would not be as well suited.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 01:25:36 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

diesel guy

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2007, 03:19:12 PM »
rcavictim

Sorry about your breakdown.

About the timing, it is more of a science than anything. I have done extensive calculations on that subject and your 4 degrees retarded seem about right. If you were pulling a constant heavy load from your DC system you could get away with 6 or more degrees for "maximum reliability".

This would minimize the shock load placed on the internal components and external accessories. The constant load would keep the cylinder pressures and tempatures high enough to not cause a concern with carbon buildup. The variable load AC is another story and you might want to stick with the said 4 degrees.

Good luck
Diesel Guy

ZackaryMac

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2007, 04:59:51 PM »
With my Kubota 4hp Diesel, it was already mated to a car alternator, as it was part of a flashing arrow sign. I belted in a 1500w ac head from an old military generator that was converted to run with a pulley. As soon as I started the engine I could notice an increased load on the engine, which I expected, but not this much. Not a smoke-inducing load, however it was more than I guessd at first. I never did do a load test to give you any specs, but it will start the blower on my wood furnace (1/4 hp I believe), and that's about it. Once running of course it's not a problem. Not really enough juice to properly run a skill saw under load - 1500w would barely do it, and I know I'm not making the full 1.5kw.
 I wonder if I put a truck alternator on there, removed the AC head, and ran an inverter if it would be more efficient. I have a 1000w/2500w surge inverter on it now, but melted the diodes out of one alternator already overloading it.

I hope your project works out for you. That engine wasn't designed to run that slow so it may take some extra work to make it cooperate.

Keep us posted.  :)
Kubota EL300A-R 4hp 12v Generator
Kubota B6100 HST Compact Tractor
Onan RDJA 8hp
1994 Chev S10 w/Isuzu C223
All are diesel.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2007, 07:09:29 PM »
That engine wasn't designed to run that slow so it may take some extra work to make it cooperate.

Keep us posted.  :)

That in a nutshell describes my project very well!  :D

Thanx for the coroboration on the 4 degrees diesel guy!  I think I may try retarding the timing before I do the proposed two hour fuel economy testing today, to save wear and tear.  I`d like to feel safer opening the rack up full at the slowest anticipated speeds, not just at 1050.  This thing sounds so cool at 500 RPM.  You Lister/oid owners know what I`m talkin` about.  8)
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion