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Author Topic: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM  (Read 48386 times)

rcavictim

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JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« on: October 16, 2007, 04:46:16 AM »
I have always wanted an engine that will run on the smell of an oily rag and this will be the closest I will be able to get to reach my goal.

The Lister or Listeroid 6/1 is a great engine to run continuously as a battery bank charger in an off-grid situation where the house and shop loads can then run off inverters.  Trouble is the 6/1 is a large displacement engine, nearly 1.5 litres displacement.  Anyway you run it, it has to use enough fuel to keep warm and not wet stack.  I wanted a smaller displacement engine that could live on considerably less fuel that was also capable of operating at Lister CS speeds to get low noise operation and long life.  No such engines seem to be available on the marketplace so I thought I might be able to `make my own` so to speak.

I have just fabricated a very strong and heavy welded steel frame to maintain the precise geometry between a small China JD175A diesel (353cc horizontal water cooled single rated at 6 HP@2600 RPM) to a 180 pound flywheel directly coupled to the original flywheel on an outboard bearing shaft.  The flywheel I am adding came from a agricultural hay bailer and is a very high quality casting and is very well balanced.  It is a stover type solid disc center with three large holes and an outer rim width of 5 inches.  The diameter is 19-1/2 inches.  According to the 60 MPH rim speed rule for cast iron wheels this flywheel should be safe to run at 1000 RPM max.  At 1000 RPM my JD 175 should be capable of making about 2+ HP.  That can translate into a KW or slightly more in electrical output.  In 24 hours I can put 24 kWH into my battery bank,  A house can run on 24 kW hours in a day.

I am retaining the original flywheel on the JiangDong 175 engine and have manufactured a coupler that bolts up to the JD the same way the V-belt pulley gets installed with three bolts at 120 degree centers.  My coupler transfers rotaional energy to the large flywheel through three coaxial rubber damped couplers.  This is tight coupling but provides damping so that harmonics cannot build up in the JD crankshaft nor is it likely to suffer cracking from high peak shock loading. At least that is the idea.   ;)  My large flywheel has it`s own jackshaft and two ball bearings to bear the static weight of the massive flywheel.  The center `pin` of the coupler half that is bolted to the JD flywheel terminates in a bronze bushing in the center of the large flywheel.  This provides some mass support of the large flywheel to the engine crank in the radial direction.

Today I finally got the engine and big flywheel all mated up on the new frame in near perfect alignment for the first time.  I fired it up and ran it for about 20 minutes. The stock governor on the JD would shut off the fuel rack completely trying to run slower than about 480 RPM, so that is where I let it run. There is no vibration at all and a glass of water has almost no ripple on the surface when perched on the frame base in three corners.  In the forth corner it has a slight ripple pattern.  I have not yet fine tuned the alignment between the engine and large flywheel with shims.  I can see that I need to add about ten thou worth of shimstock behind just one of the three perches that hold my coupler to the JD flywheel, that`s it!

At 1000 RPM and full power I expect to be able to run about 3 hours making 1 kW electric output on just a litre of fuel. It appears that this plant will run at 500 RPM, so 500 watts could be possible at a real slow speed.  At 500 watts, 6 hours per litre of fuel use ought to be possible.  That means it may run a 24 hour day on just one gallon of juice.  Only testing will verify if this project will succeed but so far my experimantal plant appears to run OK. 

Now I need to add the framing necessary to mount the big DC generator I plan to use and see how it performs under a load.  If OK I`ll install the fuel tank and radiator system.

I need to get into the stock governor and modify it to work over the new slower speed range.  I expect to have to increase the mass of the flying weights.

I`ll post pics as soon as I am able.

edit to correct minor tech detail.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 02:07:50 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Tom

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 05:37:12 AM »
I must be missing something here. The 6/1 listeroid will burn .11 gal of fuel per kw so 3kw = .33 gal or about a liter. So where is the fuel savings? Unless you're just having fun, then carry on.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 05:53:31 AM »
I must be missing something here. The 6/1 listeroid will burn .11 gal of fuel per kw so 3kw = .33 gal or about a liter. So where is the fuel savings? Unless you're just having fun, then carry on.

Tom,

Your usage number at 3 kW of 0.33 gallons per hour is 8 gallons in a 24 hour period.  I hope to be abkle to operate on as little as 1 gallon in 24 hours and at a max maybe  2 gallons.

Tell me you can run a 6/1 Listeroid with a fuel flow of 0.11 gallons per hour for 24 hours and not have it wet stack and foul up. I really doubt that this large engine will tolerate that cold running for long.

I am not claiming higher efficiency.  I have set up an engine that is 1/4 of the displacement of the Lister so that I can hopefully run it with 1/4 the fuel throughput per hour without wet stacking.  A Listeroid 6/1 burns too much fuel in a day throttled up to 70% load for my very frugal fuel budget.

Also, I do not own a 6/1 yet and have been having trouble finding one I can afford.  I was however able to obtain a JD175 engine which costs a lot less new.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 11:49:23 PM »
Ran the experimental plant again today with no load.  This time I was able to get it to tick over smoothly at 375 RPM.  There is a wide open exhaust port, not even a piece of pipe and this thing is pretty quiet now.  The loudest noise is the diesel knock.

This is my very first low speed diesel!  That relaxing sound is so kool!   ;D

I plan to take my laptop out to the shop and record a .wav file of the sound of it starting and running.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

ZackaryMac

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 02:10:55 AM »
Sounds like an interesting set-up.

Just wondering...I don't know anything about the Chinese diesels that you are working with, however it's still an engine with a specific design, so...will it get enough lube at that slow of a speed? This will be quite different from idle, where a motor isn't (supposed to be) loaded, however yours will be working reasonably hard at that low rpm.

Though hardly a direct comparison, my GMC Sonoma has a Isuzu diesel that I put in it 4 years ago. After the first year, the first engine started smoking blue. So I found another engine, with 484,000kms showing on the clock, and put that in. After 2 years in there, it was getting sluggish and weak. Figuring it was near death, I found a third engine, claimed to have only 150,000kms on it. So, I decided to run engine #2 harder, as I have a tendency to lug it and drive it easy. After 6 months of that, it works like it did when I first put it in. It's now got over 550,000kms on it. The other engine (#3) is sitting in the corner of the garage, waiting for me to install it into a newer truck (someday!! ;D). So, my long-winded point/question to no-one is, will lugging this engine cause the same dilema to the JD?
 For me, commom sense says No, why should it?, yet experience says Yes, it can.
 Problem is, I don't listen to the voices in my head anymore!   ;D :o
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M61hops

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 02:21:38 AM »
Interesting project you got here RCA, I'd love to see some photos!  I have 2 of these motors by ChangFa and really like the design.  They are too loud for me to use for my Co-Gen project as I intended so I'm going to use a 6/1 listeroid instead.  I think you could be on to something useful with this idea and look forward to more reports!  I still hope to use my 175A's for something in the future.  Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Tom

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 02:52:30 AM »
Well for real world numbers. I've been running my rig 8 hours per day powering construction crews at our home site. During an average 8 hour day I use 1.25 gal of fuel. That is 0.156 gph and no problems with wet stacking or anything else. For part of the summer I was running a 50/50 mix of wvo and biodiesel. Again absolutely no problems running at this load.

I am running a thermostat though. It is a 180 that probably should be a 195 degree.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 03:13:14 AM »
Well for real world numbers. I've been running my rig 8 hours per day powering construction crews at our home site. During an average 8 hour day I use 1.25 gal of fuel. That is 0.156 gph and no problems with wet stacking or anything else. For part of the summer I was running a 50/50 mix of wvo and biodiesel. Again absolutely no problems running at this load.

I am running a thermostat though. It is a 180 that probably should be a 195 degree.

Tom,

Sounds like you have a good engine there!  Please do not misunderstand what I say as in any way trying to demean or belittle the Lister or Listeroid.  I seriously hope to own one myself ASAP.  I am a natural born experimenter however and this seemed like an opportunity to answer a nagging question that no-one has been able to answer, and possibly fulfil a need I have at the same time for a very low fuel consumption generator.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 03:18:27 AM »
Interesting project you got here RCA, I'd love to see some photos!  I have 2 of these motors by ChangFa and really like the design.  They are too loud for me to use for my Co-Gen project as I intended so I'm going to use a 6/1 listeroid instead.  I think you could be on to something useful with this idea and look forward to more reports!  I still hope to use my 175A's for something in the future.  Leland

I wish I could post the pics I now have.  These Chinese singles sure are noisy alright used as delivered.  Perhaps what I am doing will provide power with less acoustical discomfort.  I like the design too and think the quality of the machining is very good for the money compared to what I see on the web in reports of the engines made in India.

I have said it before and I`ll say it here again.  I wish a respected Chinese engine maker would start building a Lister 6/1 clone.  If I had a chance to recommend any engineering improvements in the new clone I would like to see enclosed pushrods like the Petter design with an actively oiled top end, oil pump and screw on oil filter.  With oil pressure how about a crossdrilled crank throw and  pressurized lower rod bearing.  Keep the TRB`s.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 03:33:39 AM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 03:57:26 AM »
I am a natural born experimenter however and this seemed like an opportunity to answer a nagging question that no-one has been able to answer, and possibly fulfil a need I have at the same time for a very low fuel consumption generator.

I think you will end up having to do what you do naturally - experiment.
The only way you will be able to answer this question is to actually run the thing over a lengthy period of time to see what happens.
For my totally off the cuff input - if you take a 1000 rpm engine and run it at 350 rpm you are likely to see oiling issues. I don't know what kind of lubrication your engine has but if for example it's splash lubrication you could make a different dipper. If it's a forced lube system you could add an electric oil pump. In other words, I think it should be do-able.
One other thing that I always wondered about - how is compression affected by the much slower rpm ?  You get a certain amount of leakage past the rings and running slower you have more time for leakage to happen. I don't know at what level of wear this gets reflected in reduced efficiency or inability to run.

Jens

Your concerns about potentially inadequate oiling are valid.  This is actually a 2600 RPM engine.  I plan to run between 500 and 1000.  This engine has an oil pump but I considered the oiling inadequate so designed a scoop type dipper/slinger which is attached to the bottom lower rod cap bolt.  It works very well.  With it I am not concerned about insufficient lube, certainly not above 500 RPM.  Running no load today at 375 RPM was just a stunt to see if it would.

This indirect injection engine has a CR of 21-23:1.  That will have to leak a lot before it drops to 16 to one where many diesels operate just fine.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 10:10:39 PM »
I have some pictures of my project here.  Sorry about the large detailed images but at least I`m not hogging forum server space, they are hosted elsewhere.




In this second photo the engine is actually spinning the flywheel running about 500 RPM.








Here are a couple of detail pictures of the rubber damped coupler of my own design.  There are three, 5/8 inch solid cold rolled steel pins attached to the engine side of the coupler riding coaxially in the center of each rubber section.  The outer sleeve of which are each attached to the plate that bolts to the big flywheel.  The nose of the large center pin which is an extension of the JD175A crankshaft is run in a bronze bushing in the large flywheel center hole.  I obtained the solid rubber as a boat trailer bumper(?) from Princess Auto.  It was just $5 and long enough to furnish all three copmponents, cut on a bandsaw and finished true on a belt sander.  The balance of this assembly is very true.








« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:24:09 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Tom

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 01:52:30 AM »
Nice looking experiment! It will be interesting to see how the rod bearing holds up. Please keep us posted.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Doug

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 06:22:11 AM »
SO cool
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M61hops

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 08:07:14 AM »
Ooo---- I think I have a case of flywheel envy.                                                     Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

ZackaryMac

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Re: JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2007, 01:33:40 AM »
The main reason small displacement diesel engines run such high compression is so they can actually run....er,..that is, due to their small displacement, they don't generate much heat inside the combustion chamber if they run lower CR. So to make that heat, they squeeze the crap out of the air to make it hot enough to create auto ignition with the fuel. Larger cc diesels have a bigger area to create heat, and so don't need such a high CR.

Keep us well informed with your project. All the power to you for answering those questions in your own mind that others only talk about.
Be sure to move this experiment onto the secret lab, as I'm sure if Big Oil finds out you're successful, they'll come a'knockin!  :o ;D
Kubota EL300A-R 4hp 12v Generator
Kubota B6100 HST Compact Tractor
Onan RDJA 8hp
1994 Chev S10 w/Isuzu C223
All are diesel.