WOOD BASE FOR A LISTEROID/USING 4x4 FENCE POSTS

[dieseldave]

I have a LG90 14/1 on order from Lovson exports. Comes with counterbalanced crank and flywheels.

Using 4x4 fence posts cut to 4 feet long, 8 total.  I drilled 3/8 holes, very acurately,in all the pieces. They are tied together with 3/8 threaded rod,using angle iron on each end as a continuous washer,to keek the nuts from sinking into the wood. The finished dimensions of the base is 28"x48"x3 1/2" thick. A total of 4- 36" threaded rods were used.

All 4 corners will sit on suitable rubber cushions.  When the engine is bolted down,the underside will have a steel plate with 4 mounting holes that match the dimensions of the mounting holes of the engine,in this case it is 260x260mm.   

I believe that a wood base,properly built,would provide some "give" and yet be strong enough. I really dont want to pour a concrete pad. I am open to some other ideas,thats what this site is about!

[clytle374]

I tested my engine with that basic setup(large wood beams)  It worked OK.  I didn't trust it (maybe paranoid)  to not fall over and had a tractor setting on the other end.

Yes mounting questions, someone light some flamethrowers I'm  getting cold.

[GuyFawkes]

Unless you make the base out of 6 feet thick slab of concrete with some 20 " I beams embedded in it and another 100 lbs of reinforcing bar, you will have nothing but trouble. To really make everybody happy, that 6 feet thick concrete pad better be poured into a hole carved out of solid granite that must be part of the earth's mantle. No fault lines are allowed within a 30 mile radius.

This is precisely what is wrong with this, and all other, forums and communities.

You'll get similar "funny" little skits about any given subject, ammo reloading or blackpowder weapons, chemicals, electrics, you name it, you don't have to dig very far before you find people telling funny little stories, about excess safety, excess caution, excess nannyism and suchlike.

fools rush in where angels fear to tread, so there's no point trying to explain, because the people you're trying to explain to have already convinced themselves that they know enough, based on quite what appraisal we don't know, but nonetheless...

we have had plenty of discussions before about various aspects of these engines this includes concrete blocks flywheels etc

the trouble is we aren't actually talking about concrete blocks flywheels etc all different mechanical things we are talking about the thing that they all have in common which is the user because the user are always has the same attitude, if I stray into the users in particular field of expertise and start buggering about they are the first to point out my folly, however when the shoe is on the other foot and someone attempts to point out that their folly in someone else's field of expertise, and they have quite a different attitude.

So what are you supposed to say?

Your audience basically gives you a limited and pre defined set of roles which you can play.  you can play the moaning mini who is always worried about safety, you can play the moaning many who is always worried about aesthetics, you can play the leading many that is always worried about doing it the way things were done in the old days, but none of the roles available to you is that of "someone who should be listened to", perhaps because nobody is actually paying anything for this advice.

effectively we have just defined a ceiling of the value of information available in any forum, and that ceiling is very low, very very low indeed, which really begs the question what purpose do forums serve when the very human nature of those participating in the forums, this is what limits them, not the technology, and not the individual expertise and experience of each user

Really, what is the point in me wasting my time and yours telling Jens that his frame is scrap, and of no use to man or beast? and if I'm wasting my time on such a basically fundamental and simple issue then most of us who are trying to share some knowledge by simply wasting our time and bandwidth.

the real problem, and I'm going to use this frame as an example, is that it will take a catastrophic failure of the frame before anyone will listen, anything short of a catastrophic failure, which will likely result in such things as the engine shaking itself to death and basically never coming together as a pleasing and satisfactory and reliable piece of kit, will just end up with yet another person convinced that basically these engines are a pile of crap, and the fault of course will line with the engine itself and not with the user.

Even if there is a catastrophic failure and one user is ripped limb from limb in the resulting carnage, other users will still not accept that that the problem was a fundamental refusal to accept the knowledge and experience of others and do the job properly, but was rather due to the ineptitude of the person in question, perhaps they were crap welder, perhaps they were crap designer, perhaps a use crap bolts, perhaps the use crap steel, basically the focus will be directed at any areas of difference that can be identified between their frame which collapsed catastrophically and *our* frame which has not yet collapsed catastrophically.

It doesn't even take the determined bullshit merchant to repeatedly post complete crap to do the damage, not mentioning any names here, but we all know why I walked away from these forums in frustration and last year, it is more than sufficient for the majority of posters to have the attitudes that I have attempted to describe above.

Perhaps it is time that forums in general and adopted the same strategy that I have in real life, which is, if you want my advice you pay for it upfront in cash.  Paying cash tends to focus your mind and makes you actually listen and pay attention and treated with some seriousness of things that you are being told in exchange for your hard earned money.

Me, I have better things to do than assume that the role of worry wart.

[JohnF13]

OK;

Here are some practical and observed comments.  Learn what you think is will work for you, but don't complain afterwards if you don't.....

First, for a working engine running long hours, a wood frame will not do.  My engines run 12 - 16 hours a day and I used to make frames from 6 x 6 or even 8 x 8 beams, both hardwood and softwood.  I used threaded rod, washers and 1/2" plate steel on top of the wood.  The whole thing was locked down into the concrete using anchor bolts.  After many hours of running I noticed that the anchor bolts were working loose.  Similarly, the engine and genhead anchor allthread rod was also worked loose.  The latter resulted in 1/2" allthread snapping on a regular basis.  Eventually I came to the conclusion that there  was just too much "spring" in the wood, allowing the bolts to loosen - this caused the nuts to vibrate against the solid steel and eventually weaken and break the rod.

I switched out to steel 6" "I" beam frames mounted on 1/2" rubber cow mats, with the genhead fixed to the "I" beams with 3" square tubing.  Since doing this, and after about 6,000 hours total running time, I have not had any more problems.  As everyone else is trying to say - the frame needs to be big, heavy and well locked down.  It's not rocket science, just physics....

If someone wants to invent a super lightweight frame made of carbon fibre, have fun, just don't expect it to work long and DON"T promote it as the best thing since the coming of Al Gore unless you have a good 2-5,000 hours on it.  Just because you can build it doesn't mean it will work.  This is basic stuff but it is essential - do it right and it will work for thousands of hours.  Do it wrong and you'll be forever welding and patching.  A couple of hundred dollars invested in good steel will allow you to sleep comfortably at night - even when the engine is running.

Yes, I'm a big steel and ton of concrete kinda guy - but it works.  KISS is the absolute principle to employ, as someone once told me, "if it isn't in the design, it can't break".

[ronmar]

Welcome to the wonderfull world of slowspeed Dave.  I am one of the ones Jens warned about:)  I will be right up front and say that 4X4 fenceposts will probably not be rigid enough to withstand the torque effects of that engine under load as John's direct experience suggests.  John perfectly described the scenario as I would see it happening.  The wood will first flex, then compress as the wood fibers break down, then things will start to break as they come under shock load due to slop.  I have heard of some running successfully with wood railroad ties buried to their upper surface in sand but I don't know of their long term success.     

Have you been to the Utterpower website http://utterpower.com/ There is a lot of info there with some examples of rigid bases.

The torque forces involved here are really old school.  There havn't been configurations like this(long stroke single cylinders and massive flywheels) widely used in a long time.  The knowledge to properly deal with these forces is not readilly available.  IMO what you are shooting for is to make the engine and generator as close to one entity as possible.  One of the best looking mounts I have seen used 2 large sections of "I" beam set parallel with large round pipe welded between to join them together.  A flat plate as you described was welded to the top of the "I" for the engine to set on and generator sliding rails were welded to the "I" right beside the engine.  The closer you can make the engine, frame and genertor to one single mass, the happier you will be.  Force = Mass X Acceleration.  If you add mass, you reduce the acceleration for a given ammount of force.  If the frame is allowed to flex between engine and generator, it will store and release the torque energy in an uncontrolled fashion which will lead to the engine and generator moving independent of each other and ultimately failing the mounting structure or the engine or generator case/feet.  This movement will cause belt slap and shock loads on the main and generator bearings as well.

IMO, the rigidity of the assembly is paramount.  My 6/1 generator frame is pretty rigid made of 1/4" wall 4X4 and 3X6 and 4X4 angle.  My generator has run many hours just setting on the garage floor while I did electrical and heat exchanger experiments on it over the summer(extended full load runs).  It is now in it's generator shed bolted to a 1300# block of concrete(recycled front step) that is setting on 1/2" rubber pads.   

I don't know why everyone is so affraid of concrete.  It is inexpensive, 34 Sixty pound sacks =2000# and on sale, this can be had for 68$ around my area.  It is easy to work with, but some sweat equity will be involved. 

Re-inventing the wheel can be fun, but R&D requires two things in quantity, Time and Money

Good Luck with your project.

Ron

[Geno]

A block of concrete is the way to go, not a slab.

I've since learned this isn't the correct way to do it. You put some softwood 4x4 or maybe 2x2 posts in the hole before you pour the concrete. Remove the posts, put in the anchor bolts, set the frame up and then pour the grout. My way worked but if I was off a bit on drilling the frame it would have been a real pain.

http://www.genedevera.com/listeroid/Foundation/P7060061.jpg

http://www.genedevera.com/listeroid/Foundation/P7070064.jpg

http://www.genedevera.com/listeroid/Foundation/P7230005.jpg

Thanks, Geno

[Tom]

This thread brings up some good points. My generator just moved inside to a temporary location out of the weather. It had been running real well in the config I had it with my 4" channel iron frame bolted to some redwood log skids. I had filled the area between the skids with sand and wet it real good and that seemed to stop darn near most of the vibration.

When I moved it inside I found the logs were not flat enough to sit on the concrete slab. So I discovered that a 4X6 on end will fit perfectly between the legs of the channel iron base. I lag bolted through the channel iron into the 4X6's and it still wanted to go for a walk. So I used some aircraft cable to tie it to the foundation bolts. It seems to be working pretty good now, but has more vibration than it did in the sand bed.

I will soon be following the sage advice found on this forum and building the concrete block base in a dedicated generator shed. I was originally going to use polyurethane Scout II body mount bushings, but have seen the error in this plan. I am now thinking of mounting my channel iron frame sitting on the 4X6es to the concrete block. Or should I just embed the frame in the concrete. Opinions? I'm sure everybody has one, some even have a few.

[vwbeamer]

Not a rocket scientist, but I race cars. A stiff frame is hard to build on a single plane. 

[listeroidsusa1]

Some other folks, as well as myself, have touched on the "magic" combination before, a strong rigid steel frame sitting on a THIN rubber pad from 1/4" to 1/2" directly at the frame mounting points. My engine jumped and vibrated when bolted to my machine shop floor (15" reinforced concrete). When I put a 1/4" flat belt pad between the frame and the concrete the vibration and shaking just went away. Now you can sit a glass of water on the head and not spill a drop, and even holding one's hand on the engine very little movement is felt. On the concrete my bolts were constantly loosening and being wallowed in the concrete. After putting the pads under the frame I have not had to adjust or tighten my mounting bolts in over 4 years! The engines have a powerful power pulse and the hard frame against a hard concrete floor has a "cue  ball" effect, especially if your floor isn't exactly level. The rubber pad cancels this out. It works. Try it, its cheap and easy and I think you'll find it works great.

[hotater]

My first engine was mounted on 6x6s with steel rail inside....it broke everything tried to keep it down.   As soon as it got ANY room to move it DID.  7250 hours.

The second engine is bolted to a steel frame buried two feet deep in more than a yard of concrete...snakes crawl next to it....there is NO vibration.  3400 hours.

Your mileage may vary.

[dieseldave]

   I have seen plenty of stationary antique engines mounted on wood platforms doing USEFULL WORK at farmfests. These wood platforms were not as well put together as the one I built. Not only that,but, some of these engines were very crude, low RPM engines(500RPM),with very large flywheels, makes the Lister type seem like a ROLLS ROYCE in comparison.

   The trick is to sandwich the mounting area with a steel plate(acts like a big washer). At the same time,the wood has a certain amount of give.  I realize that this is a single cylinder engine, but at the same time developes around 70 ft/lbs of torque.

[GuyFawkes]

   I have seen plenty of stationary antique engines mounted on wood platforms doing USEFULL WORK at farmfests. These wood platforms were not as well put together as the one I built. Not only that,but, some of these engines were very crude, low RPM engines(500RPM),with very large flywheels, makes the Lister type seem like a ROLLS ROYCE in comparison.

   The trick is to sandwich the mounting area with a steel plate(acts like a big washer). At the same time,the wood has a certain amount of give.  I realize that this is a single cylinder engine, but at the same time developes around 70 ft/lbs of torque.

think about what you are saying man......

1/ you went to a farm fest / rally

2/ you saw some old engines

3/ some of them were running at some time during the day of your visit

4/ some of them were driving closed loop water pumps and running dynamos powering six 50 watt lamps

5/ most of them were on crappy wooden bases, often on cast iron wheels too

and from this you get to claiming useful work is being done and everything is adequate and hunky dory, though I doubt you saw any individual engine running for even an hour...

[GuyFawkes]

As far as your thoughts on catastrophic failure of the frame - this is one of those opinions that I am taking with several grains of salt unless you tell me that you are a structural engineer. Everything in this world flexes. Go stand on a bridge and 'feel' the traffic going over it. Look out the window of an airplane and watch the wing tips flex a foot in either direction. You can reduce flexing but you can't eliminate it. Is my 4*4 frame with 3/16 wall thickness going to catastrophically fail - no, it isn't.  Is there a possibility of the frame coming apart due to the vibration - yes, of course but it's pretty much as likely if the steel is 1/4" thick.
Anyway, even if you are a structural engineer and work every bit of stress out on the structure, you can still end up with failure which is why we have planes falling out of the sky and bridges falling down after 20 or 30 years of use. I accept the fact that there is a risk to me building my own frame.

I'm a time served marine engineer who just happened to grow up and work around a lot of this stuff, we didn't have mains electric, running water, mains sewerage, any of that shit.

I'm not any kind of structural engineer, so I won't be designing any elegant spiderweb crane gibs and gantries, that's the bloody point Jens, you have to know a subject inside out and ass backwards before you can even begin to know where to shave things and where to cut corners, which is why despite my mechanical engineering knowledge back in the day when everyone was lightening brake disks and engine flywheels and suchlike I either left well alone or took it to a specialist (preferably one I could trade favours with) and said "breathe on this for me"

I was about the only one who didn't have catastrophic failures, and I was about the only one who didn't pick up a lifelong nickname along the way like "fingers" by getting three of them ripped off when the crank case blew.

You're less of a structural engineer than me, and yet you feel qualified to make statements like the one above, and I quote, "Is my 4*4 frame with 3/16 wall thickness going to catastrophically fail - no, it isn't" well you just don't bloody well know that for any kind of fact, you have a BELIEF and a WISH that you are selling to yourself and others as a FACT, and it ain't any such thing.

"shit that flexes fails" it is only a question of time, that is experience talking, the experience I absorbed from scores of others as much as my own, and as soon as you start welding bits of steel together the failure mode is always the same, rapid, one minute a particular section is OK, a minute later it is in two pieces, and if you are lucky there is enough residual strength in the surrounding structure to prevent the domino effect, at least temporarily.

Trying to minimise engine vibration while bolted to that frame is like trying to float level concrete on a trampoline while you're walking around on it, as long as you have a hole in you ass you will not be able to identify and eliminate the moments of feedback from the frame to the motor, this is the classic "black box" problem, where you try to fix the output from a black box, without being able to open it and see what is going on inside, it can't be done.

the tacoma narrows bridge failed because people got the numbers wrong, the recent US bridge collapse sounds like it failed because people ignored the number and created point loads with debris that exceeded the numbers, the comet 4 fell out of the sky because the design of the windows was wrong, the point is all these failures have fatigue and then yield points in common, and just because al lot of QUALIFIED people who did a LOT of calculations that had a LOT of verification and signing off still sometimes get it wrong, is no basis to assume that your "she'll be right mate" not even back of a fag (cigarette) packet calculation but wishful guess is as valid.

do you own a compressor and air chisel?

they are puny, the force generated is small, compared to a man with a chisel and weedy 18oz hammer, but they will chew through weld seams and studs in no time at all.

an air chisel will reduce your (in my view) scrap frame to several pieces of scrap in short order, yet, you think it is strong enough.

if it truly was strong enough an air chisel could work at it all day and do nothing of note.

you HAVE NOT thought this through in a clinical and analytical way, you've done what everyone does and turned wishes into horses, just because it suits you, and at some point you need to wake up and smell the coffee and realise that the physical world obeys its own laws, all the time, and nothing is ever going to change that.

if your frame held an air brush compressor made out of an old fridge pump unit I'd say go for it, because the consequences of a major failure mode are pretty slim, but the consequences of a running listeroid being tipped off a scrap frame that just let go (you DID factor in that it ain't sat on the ground, that top heavy motor is now sat on top of steel section, didn't you) are potentially quite conceivably fatal.... those flywheels are doing near 60 mph, there are plenty of stories of them going through walls and then taking off for nearly a mile across country.... there are plenty of people caught out by rotating machinery taking an unexpected lurch and suddenly dragging them in, if they have angels dancing on their shoulders they were wearing old and rotting from battery acid cotton clothing that simply tore off, and had short hair, and were left with bruises and stood in a pool of piss, if they were unlucky limbs were torn off.

you are being told, not just by me, that you are wrong in every way about this frame, and you just aren't listening, because, in classic human fashion, it suits you not to, so because your scrap frame hasn't let go you miscalculate the risks on the basis of "it ain't happened yet" and carry on as suits you best.

you wonder why it is illegal to the point where you get arrested and go to prison for simply making your own car and chassis and driving it down the public roads at 70 without any kind of inspection, certification or type approval? you wonder where all these restrictive laws come from? it isn't to stop people like me from doing these things.

[MeanListerGreen]

Well this really leaves me in a delima.  My genset is mounted to a factory cast frame that is mounted to railroad ties, that is bolted inside a trailer made of 8" angle iron.  The ties are fit snuggley in the angle frame.  I am in the process of adding outriggers to make sure I can get it as close to level as possible and help eliminate rocking motion.  I liked the idea of having something mobile.  Maybe I should just bury this in about 8 tons of concrete and build a shed over it?

[GuyFawkes]

trouble with trailers is unless you have jack posts the vibes whack out the wheel bearings in no time.