WOOD BASE FOR A LISTEROID/USING 4x4 FENCE POSTS

[Houndog]

I too, am at a point where it is time to build a mount after rebuild. I completely understand the need to bolt it to a huge slab, however, I would love to have a more mobile setup. I believe it is XYZER Dave, that has built a gorgeous mobile mount that is pumping water next to his lake. Now I realize that this "mobile" means lifting and placing with a tractor, but that is the direction I was heading down. Dave, if you're listening, how is your setup holdiong up over time?

Houndog

[hotater]

Not a slab------ a BLOCK!

After watching two of these engines, the first a REAL jumper, I've come to some rude crude engineering conclusions--

Consider the mounting bolts at the crankcase feet the midpoint of the mass, but spread out the lower portion (mount)  so that the entire engine and gen head is the top of a pyramid, in regards to MASS.

I think a eight to twelve inch deep 'box' of heavy steel then filled with sand, gravel, or better yet concrete with a foot print twice as wide as the mounting feet and length about equal to the overall height, should be stable and still portable by skidding.

As one that chased mounting problems from the very first day with the first engine and having SOLVED them with engine #2, I speak from experience.

BTW-- I  also mounted a mini-Petter pump to a massive block of concrete but put 6x6 timber spacers to 'give it some give'.  It was a failure.  The wood shrinks or compresses and if the mounting nuts aren't tightened EVERY time it's cranked it WILL fail.

[MeanListerGreen]

trouble with trailers is unless you have jack posts the vibes whack out the wheel bearings in no time.

The trailer is set up to be raised up and set on the outriggers.  The wheels won't be carrying any load only the outriggers and the 8" angle iron frame will be carrying the load.  I guess the outriggers I refer to are the same as the jack posts you refer to.  I'm not sure the vibration from the engine running would effect the bearing if they arent carrying any load.

[hotater]

jens---


My future book is about how EVERYTHING is the same, except for time and scale.

Everything that flexes DOES break, it's just a matter of how long.  Every flexible part in that car has a finite life until failure.  Some can be mitigated by re-heattreat or additional chemicals to prolong that inevitibility.....but it's GOING to fail.

So-far today there have been five reported earthquakes of 5.0 magnitude or larger.  Consider those over-ride, subduction, slip and compression fault failures as weld cracks.

It all boils down to a question of mass and how Newtonian forces act on that mass.  I'm sure my MT-II 6-1/5ST running out there now has vibrations to it, but I can't see it in a glass of water sitting on the valve cover or feel it through my bare feet.  

 The OLD one, MT-I, made my desk lamp jiggle 180 feet away in a different building and snakes dropped close to it had a nervous fit until they'd gotten more than about 15 feet from it.   It was bolted to a 6x6 frame (visible in the photo essay referenced at utterpower.com) that was in turn bolted to a 6 inch on-grade, 'L' shaped slab.  It broke of the leg of the L but ran for another 5000 hours jiggling the building up and down about .025 inch.    

[ronmar]

I too, am at a point where it is time to build a mount after rebuild. I completely understand the need to bolt it to a huge slab, however, I would love to have a more mobile setup. I believe it is XYZER Dave, that has built a gorgeous mobile mount that is pumping water next to his lake. Now I realize that this "mobile" means lifting and placing with a tractor, but that is the direction I was heading down. Dave, if you're listening, how is your setup holdiong up over time?

Houndog

The one thing that Daves mount and MeanListerGreens mount have in common are the rigid heavy base frame.  The cast factory bases like that for the SOM appear to have been very rigid.  The rigid frame greatly increases the mass by making the whole assembly one big piece.  By bolting it to a heavy trailer such as MLG has done, he has added mass at longer moment arms which further restricts movement. I bet it still jiggles a little on the springs, but it won't take too much applied force on outriggers/jackstands to stop this as they are probably spread out on a long moment arm(Archemedes, give me a long enough lever and I will move the world).  Daves frame If I recall from the video is fairly long and has overhead structure to provide for mounting the cooling system and a lifting structure.  Again, heavy structure spread out on a longer moment arm from the applied forces has a greater dampening effect.

I like the heavy steel box frame idea that Hotater described that is filled with sand.  Not strictly portable, but by removing the sand, you are down to just the steel weight.  Like some have said, they run well with a rigid frame on rubber pads.  But again, I believe the key is a well thought out and engineered framework that makes all the parts as close to one mass as possible.   

Ron   

[hotater]

Jens--

Could I suggest that the reason SO much time, effort, thought, research and experimentation have been done, is because a failure and death could be a very close-coupled event.

A good cartoon would be a headless corpse with flywheel parts embedded in the scenery with the onlooker's caption bubble reading--   "He said his design should last the rest of his life.....he missed by nine milliseconds."

I'm about to move off and leave my engine mount because it's in close contact with the techtonic plate, but I'll build another one JUST like it!

[rcavictim]

I am in the process of making a very strong and heavy welded steel frame to maintain the precise geometry between a small China JD175A diesel (353cc horizontal water cooled single rated at 6 HP@2600 RPM) to a 180 pound flywheel directly coupled to the original flywheel on an outboard bearing shaft.

I have always wanted an engine that will run on the smell of an oily rag and this will be the closest I will be able to get to reach my goal.  I expect to be able to run about 3 hours making full power (1 kW electric output) on just a litre of fuel.  My max RPM limit will be 1000, determined by the added 19.5 x 5 inch flywheel.  I have hopes that this package might be happy and very long lived at even slower Lister speeds of 375 to 650 RPM. At reduced speed 6 hours per litre ought to be achievable.  Such an engine, ideal as a 24/7 battery bank replenisher for off grid use is just not available commercially.  The 6/1 is good but uses far too much fuel for my limited budget.

When more power is needed as like when I`m in my shop I can activate another, larger diesel generator plant.

[xyzer]

Dave, if you're listening, how is your setup holdiong up over time?

Houndog

Still doing good....I am finishing up my 2nd shot at it and can tell you there are some variables! I used my first 6/1 as a standard and balanced my 2nd 6/1 to the same %. I still had to use the Mr. X method of trial and error to get it to behave properly with the new frame and different resilient mounts I used. 1 cylinder engines are never balanced they are a compromise of reciprocating vs. rotating you either get a bouncer or a shuffler. You have to find the compromise for your use. I still believe Listeroids can be portable I have 2 but it ain't no simple blueprint type feat! I could have bought a bigger tractor and built a steel frame with a concrete weight poured into it and saved myself lots of trial and error time. Yes it can be done .......is it worth it? It was to me but now that I have 2 portables my next one will be bolted to cement...and more time spent on the fun stuff.....each to his own I guess. I haven't read the rest of the thread for the details but 4x4 fence post seem a bit light to me 6x6 maybe but I bet it can be done!
Dave

[listerdiesel]

The one thing that Daves mount and MeanListerGreens mount have in common are the rigid heavy base frame.  The cast factory bases like that for the SOM appear to have been very rigid. 
Ron   

The Lister Start-O-Matic concrete base requirements are:

27" deep with 3" above ground level.

3" wider than the S-O-M base casting all round.

Peter
 

[sid]

been gone for a week or so I find out we are back on the one ton concrete block issue//so i did not miss anything. if I had knew that I could have stayed away another week and not missed anything///during that time I ran a 1000 lb engine and a 800 lb grits mill on a trailer// ran it about 10 hours a day for 10 days..after running it on that trailer for 10 years/glad i found out it would not work/so what works for one person may not work for another/ remember. you have to be young and stupid before you can be old and wise///sid

[hotater]

you have to be young and stupid before you can be old and wise

You've CRUSHED ME!  I thought I was doing GOOD by being gray but feeling young.  Its' just the stupid phase lasting too long!!

That explains the cannons, though.   

[sid]

I am still waiting for the wise part to kick in// it could have and I do not remember it//sid

[dieseldave]

    In addition to having a wood base with the engine sitting on rubber and the base also rubber mounted,heres another idea!!

    What about a 'head steady' like you see in many motorcycle engine/to frame installations.  This might dampen some of the vibration.

[dieseldave]

    Sandwich the wood frame between steel,both sides and ends.

    Engine mounting method,from bottom to top:  1/4 steel plate,conveyor belting,woodbase, conveyor belting,1/4 steel plate,then engine. This ,of coarse is tied together with3/4 bolts with locking nuts.

     The ends are 4" channel sandwiching the wood. This is also cushioned by conveyor belting

[Stan]

Been away for awhile and as such haven't read the previous postings as carefully as I should so if I repeat something here forgive me in advance.  Penelope spent her life sitting on pine 4x4's and did just fine.  I know this because I took her from her little "house" myself.  The 4x4's were so rotten they fell off as soon as we lifted her up.  She's now sitting on Tamarack (Larch for you guys S. of the 49th) 6x6's with cross 4x4's at 2 points.  I plan on eventually putting her on a large concrete block but will bolt the wood to the concrete.  I am leery of bolting cast iron to something as inflexible as concrete as I can easily imagine cracking the cast if the concrete base isn't precisely flat.
Stan