Alternatives to batteries? FES, compressed air, etc

[M61hops]

I know of a couple houses near me that use small hydro-electric systems that drain a small pond through a water turbine to make electricity.  The one I inspected was way cool!  They had a setup from the early fifties that made 2500 watts on demand and shut off the water to the turbine when no electricity was needed.  When the refrigerator or anything kicked on, 24V DC flowed through the circut and opened a solonoid pilot valve that controlled a water driven valve (sort of like a modern electric lawn sprinkler valve) which opened and the turbine spins up and you have power.  To keep from draining the pond that was filled from a small spring, opening the circut shut the valves off and stopped the water and the generator.  Really slick and had been pretty trouble free for 50 years!  I couldn't figure out what kept the 24V batteries isolated from the 120V AC power though,  the pilot valve voltage ran through the regular house wiring that the 120V ran through.  The batteries were charged by 2 small cheap auto battery chargers that were plugged into the 120V AC.  If I ever buy off grid property I'd try and get a place that could have hydro-power!  Leland

[rmchambers]

That's how the Lister SOM's worked.  They sensed the "need" for juice with a low voltage pilot setup and started up.  I believe the SOM's when they get up to speed take the 24V out of the picture using a relay or something similar.

[rcavictim]

I couldn't figure out what kept the 24V batteries isolated from the 120V AC power though,  the pilot valve voltage ran through the regular house wiring that the 120V ran through.   Leland

I wonder if the designer created a LVDC* control loop between the neutral wire and the ground wire.  The hot phase would remain isolated.  For this to work however either each appliance would have to me modified or a small box of electronics would have to be placed at each outplet to sense application of load and close the control loop accordingly.

There is/was a company in the USA that manufactured a 112 VDC to 120 VAC 60 Hz MG set for portable use in your vehicle or service truck.  I saw one once in the flesh.  It somehow sensed that a load had appeared across the hot output lines and then would turn on the DC motor.  Open the output circuit and the unit would shut off.  Modern inverters have replaced these as they are hugely more efficient.

*not to be confused with HVDC (Heating Ventillating and Duct Cleaning) which must  be the correct definition of this acronym since HVAC apparently does NOT mean High Voltage Alternating Current in the general lexicon.  Vent off.   

[Florida Cracker]

I think if you could afford the tank, you should buy PV  & wind  gen instead.

That doesn't eliminate the need for batteries. I was assuming an initial source of intermittant electricity was already established and an alternative way to store it was wanted. My 25 gallon pressure tank for my water pump holds 70 psi so how about 8 to 10 of those. They are cheap and easily replacable.

[mkdutchman]

I think if you could afford the tank, you should buy PV  & wind  gen instead.

That doesn't eliminate the need for batteries.

Ditto. The problem is storage, obtaining the energy/power itself is really not a problem, BUT it's not available 100% of the time and there's no way I can utilize it all immediately.  It'd probably be more efficient to tackle the problem from the storage end

[Dail R H]

   What about a 1000 gal propane tank,could hold the preassure,and a fair volume for the pumpup rocket idea.

[mkdutchman]

   What about a 1000 gal propane tank,could hold the preassure,and a fair volume for the pumpup rocket idea.

Just out of curiosity ...... the propane tank is good to say 250 PSI. How much air do you need in this thing though to be able to push the water out ? What about the drop of pressure in the air when you have pulled let's say 50 gallons of water out ? To ake it worthwhile, I would think that you would need to pressurize an empty tank to let's say 200 PSI and then pump in water until you reach 250 PSI. I would be surprised if that would be more than a couple of hundred gallons. You would need safeties to prevent the air from exiting when you run out of water bcause it takes a lot of energy to get the air in to begin with. The cost of a SAFE 1000 gallon propane tank would be considerable and you would have to protect he inside from corrosion somehow.
By the time you have purchased the tank, built the mounts, built the safety system, built the air compressor, built he high pressure pump etc etc etc, you would be MUCH better off just buying a few super heavy batteries  (IMHO)
Oh, imagine the bang if that tank would suddenly de-pressurize from let's say a stray bullet or what-have-you. Fine if it stays in one piece but say it peels open ....

Of course this equation changes if you have a handy-dandy lake at a reasonable elevation .....

IMHO, the best energy storage is diesel. It's easy to contain, has a high energy density and can readily be converted to electricity. If you don't like the generator approach then wait a bit until the fuel cell systems improve a bit. With fuel cells you could convert excess electricity to hydrogen and then jut run it through the fuel cell in order to get the electricity back. I don't know how that would compare to batteries efficiency and cost wise though.

Jens

There's several local folks here who could tell some stories about what happens to a rusted out air tank that lets loose all of a sudden. The Amish population here in the county all use diesels powering compressed air and hydraulic systems (no electricity) for powering their shops and manufactoring facilities, must be several hundred places like that in just a couple square miles. It works great as long as your moisture traps and water drains are in place and working properly.................I know I would have no qualms about using such a system, just follow common sense safety protocols

There are several hydrogen fuel cells commercialy available, but the price on them is terrible, makes batteries look cheap

[mkdutchman]

Just tripped across this this morning, exactly what I would want to do, now if this could be scaled down plus made a little more practical it might be a lot of fun.........

http://www.sandia.gov/ess/About/docs/johnson.pdf

http://www.atz-gmbh.com/3LC07_Werfel_appr.pdf

[Doug]

Thats cool....

[mkdutchman]

Slightly off topic, but something else I was musing about this morning...........

As stated before, I need heat, electricity, and compressed air

WMO is around by the barrel for the taking, therefore it seems only common sense to make use of it. People are building their own WMO burners
http://www.aipengineering.com/babington/Babington_Oil_Burner_HOWTO.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me11.html
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/guest_willsburner.html

even metal casting with WMO, I'm definitely going to have to play with that in the future
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oilburners03.html

So there's my heat source............now the electricity. I thought about putting in a small diesel, (6/1, Changfa) charging batteries, and that would probably work.........but if I burn WMO I also want to be able to run it in whatever diesel I would use............

Another theoretical option would be some external combustion engine. Steam and Stirling are two that I'm aware of. Steam I ruled out almost immediately (practicality, efficiency issues, etc) I did some research on the Stirling, and was surprised and somewhat impressed at the efficiency claims (up to around 30%) I always thought they were an inefficient piece of museum history. Plus they look very simple, and several who built them claim the Stirling cycle readily lends itself to the DIY world.........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

What really intrigues me about the Stirling is that it runs on temperature differences. That might not seem very interesting but let's step back and look it over a bit. Your WMO burner would easily do 1000F degrees plus. Hot water for heating and sink use stays well below 200F. Supposedly you could build the WMO burner into the bottom of the Stirling, then use the heat not utilized by the Stirling (which would still easily be 200F plus) to heat your domestic hot water, and space heater............That way you would be using practically all the heat from the WMO burner, and none would go to waste..............

Regarding the compressed air supply...........anyone familiar with the fluidyne? That thing begs to be tinkered with, simplicity and longevity is painted all over it........I would love to hear from anyone with experience on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidyne
http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/27113.pdf
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/Dyne.html
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/Stirling.WMV

The only downside to this approach is that it would remove the need for a Listeroid 

[OneStep]

I know this is a very old post and i am new.

Even the wife quotes Heinlien  something like  Creating energy is not the problem... Its the storage of energy.

Last year at the Dentist i read 2 articles that caught my eye besides the 1800.00 ink pen

The artificial leaf, cheap materials and high efficiency breaking down of water to o2 and H.

And the solid state battery, some private company in MI ?  I have looked a few times and its mostly small applications and distant promises  but it holds true possibility.

OS